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It depends, if (e.g.) they were fighting about "ones" girlfriend, it's should probably be a legal proceedings of private nature afterwards, but if the reason for shooting were to get secret company information - then the company should be involved also afterwards. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
Exactly my thoughts. FIA are nothing but a joke. I have more hopes with the courts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
What would Mike gain by acting independently. This is common sense really that more people are involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
Secondly even if he acted independently the team could still have gained from this information. He did have influence over the development of the car as he is the chief designer..
It typifies the way F1 is today. Teams forcefully protect their 'secrets', shut themselves away in motorhomes, issue bland press releases that give nothing away, and do their utmost to discover what other teams are up to.Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonman
Time was when the paddock was a grass field where everyone worked on their cars together, talked, exchanged ideas, helped each other out with parts if needed, travelled to and from the races together, and a good idea was openly discussed and seen.
How times change :dozey:
No worries mate...Also I was just trying to make a point on MS and Lewis.. Thats all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
Yes – and everything because of money – big business and money. I heard some years a go that there are 2,4 milliard (2 400 000 000) spectators world wide every year in F1 if you counted every PG and TV and so on… it’s great many.. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Can Ferrari take the championship thing to court if FiA decides no punishments towards McLaren?
They'd have a tough time trying to prove McLaren bosses knew or took advantage of these alledged files.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPonx
old saying about Laughing out of court comes to mind. :)
If a high employee in Nokia, one who sits with the board of directors, is implicated and sensitive material belonging to the competition is found from his home, I doubt it would be a "laughing matter" in the court like janneppi declared.
If one of the stewards goes mental during the race and starts shooting at cars in the parking lot and eventually surrenders to the police, I doubt the race organizer would be let off with a :
"Hey we didnt gain anything from this and the guy is buried so lets just continue our lives. "
"What...you *gasp* expect us to pay for the damage?"
"Where is the justice!!!!"
[/quote:37cc8pxr]Quote:
Originally Posted by ICKE
So you'd have Silvestone officials to jailed if one of their emplyees shoots cars in the parking lot? ;)
IF it's true...Quote:
Originally Posted by f1rocks
I've got questions.
Do You think that Ferrari or any other team, don't have such informations about their rivals?
Do You think mechanics and engineers aren't talking about above with each other?
Do You think teams are not passing fake informations to the others?
Do You think teams don't have narks in other teams?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ojciec dyrektor
1. yes, because it's definitely not THAT detailed!!!! you're talking 500 pages here
2. talk? this is some serious **** here, its their jobs on the line!!!
3. that's kinda childish if it was done this way, they surely try to hide stuff but not pass fake information in THIS way to other teams.
4. they could, but what's your point? now their caught!
I don't see why people are trying to prove that this is normal!! ok, I agree that rivals try to get info from other teams but once they're caught with a proof then it's all over, and they have to get punished
again.. I'm not a Ferrari fan, I'm actually a McLaren fan and I'm from Bahrain (which owns 35% of the team), but still... what's wrong is wrong
Well the top designer was the one getting the files, so half of it, at least, is already proved.Quote:
Originally Posted by janneppi
half proved - another innovative law conceptQuote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Allegedly! :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
This is even more fishy than it smells. The top designer of one team gets lotsa stuff from the top guy in Ferrari who wants to leave. Could it be that the two want to get together in another team for next year and use the designs they have alledgedly obtained for the new team's car next year?
That's what I think.
That would be the best defense McLaren could potentially use. Otherwise, I can't imagine the team could walk away by claiming that the espionage act is out of a top designer's personal interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalasend
Well, it IS out of Ferrari's top guy's interest (allegedly). Ferrari's latest statement yesterday only stated that another guy in McLaren MIGHT be in possession of said plans and the English police, so far, have not been involved.
The way I see it, the information would be of far greater use to someone designing next year's new car than trying to alter this year's design.
Here's a summary of the whole saga to date in autosport for anyone who has not fully followed this case from the start.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60467
MacLaren has three chief designers, one is responsible for the current car, one is responsible for the next year's car, Mike Coughlan isn't either of them, apparently he's responsible for external team relationships. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Unless you were trying to setup the suspension to run on Bridgestone tires and could get the info from the team with the most data on Bridgestone! The effects could be immediate (or at least very quick.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
Please be aware that I am only saying "IF" and I have no facts to back anything up. Still there is much strangeness going around these two teams. If Stepney sent the documents to Coughlan, why would Coughlan just keep them laying around and either not use any of the data or not report the whole matter to the authorities? Does anyone really suppose that when Coughlan got the documents he would only use them himself and nobody else in the team would be aware?
I also have mixed feelings on the driver situation IF this should be found to be a case of espionage and benefit for McLaren. True, a driver just drives the car, but suppose the car had an unfair advantage (for example, BAR's extra fuel tank/ballast.) Does that driver deserve the championship points he has won in an illegal car? If this was the case, everyone would be massively breaking the rules to get their drivers points while sacrificing constructor's points!
This case is actually two cases - the legal case carried out by police and lawyers, and the sporting case carried out by FIA investigators. It will be interesting to see how these two come out. They may be totally opposite in their findings.
I did find it interesting that Bernie stated that no matter the results, it won't affect Hamilton's championship chances. What about Alonso's??? Or has Bernie already pre-arranged things?
Things are certainly getting curioser and curioser as Lewis Carrol would say...
How far are Spyker with building their car? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
So he was just doing his job within the team, establishing an external relationship with a Ferrari employee in order to get some external valuable data! ;) :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by janneppi
Next year will. allegedly, be the restart of the customer chassis F1, so why not just buy a ready chassis? Why risk to be caught and out of F1 foe good?!
this thought went through my mind when Mike was implicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
a team starting with HO, ending in DA and with a N in the name may be looking to establish a strong design team with proven track record. a team, we should bear in mind, with a proven ferrari driver and the oft heralded Button only need a car capable of challenging to potentially upset many an apple cart.
the kudos of being the men that quit the best 2 teams to turn around the failing Honda and achieve success would put them in the most coverted position in their field.
ive got a funny feeling in my trouser department that this is the most logical reason behind this debarcle. however, it must be said that this is speculation in its purest form and just another possible angle to consider. we all still wait for that most elusive of prizes, PROOF!!
I joked at the beginning that it wouldn't surprise me if someone from a lower performing team was framing rival key individuals to ruin their careers and then offer them a lifeline at their team.Quote:
Originally Posted by janneppi
Then ITV interviewed the boss of Spyker who was gushing with praise for Nigel and I joked again that there was my proof and soon we'd have Schumi turning up with the plans of next years McLaren.
mebbe I wasn't that far from the mark *eek*
1st Feb 2007 - Unhappy Stepney wants a sabbatical
23rd Feb 2007 - Stepney moves in Ferrari reshuffle
that stirring is proving quite prophetic - see http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39942Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
stating that Honda's Nick Fry was approached by Nigel Stepney looking for a job, and brought with him none other than Mike Coughlan...the thick plottens, and suddenly the whole thing makes sense.
whether they actual stole Ferrari plans or is this is a ruse to prevent them moving and taking the secrets they have in their heads remains to be seen, but it seems to make a lot more sense that Stepney and Coughlan planned to high tail it to Honda with a folder full of successful information to create a hybrid of the Ferrari and McLaren.
i hope that this is only partly true, and the information they planned to take was quite legal, but the plan to move and command a large price for their services is the story - it may be that their greed will be there downfall as the teams unite against them
And JT knew about this but didn´t find it important to share the news with world and clear a bit the doubts that fell unfairly upon McLaren...
F1: Honda Boss Met with Stepney, Coughlan
Written by: Adam Cooper, RACER Magazine
Northamptonshire, UK – 7/6/2007
Nick Fry was approached by Stepney and Coughlan last month, the team confirmed.
Honda has confirmed that team boss Nick Fry met with Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan in June to discuss possible job opportunities.
Over the last 24 hours it has become clear that McLaren was not the intended recipient of any knowledge that Stepney was able to hand over to Coughlan, but in fact the pair were working together with the intention of taking a “dream team” technical and management package to Honda. It’s thought that this group would have included other people from the paddock.
It’s believed that Stepney handed Coughlan a package of Ferrari documentation when they met in a Barcelona restaurant on April 28. It was this package that was found when Coughlan’s home was raided earlier this week. This information was presumably to be used to help the Stepney/Coughlan team present a more effective case in their discussions with Honda.
Honda’s statement said that “earlier this year Nigel Stepney, formerly of Scuderia Ferrari, requested a meeting with Nick Fry and brought with him Mike Coughlan of McLaren, with a view to investigating job opportunities within the Honda Racing F1 team. Honda would like to stress that at no point during the meeting was any confidential information offered or received. Nick Fry informed Jean Todt and Ron Dennis of the meeting and has offered to provide any information required by Ferrari and McLaren.”
In fact Dennis and Todt were only informed after the scandal broke, and the three team bosses had a meeting this morning to discuss the situation.
Honda did not say whether prior to this week’s scandal breaking Stepney and Coughlan were still in line for a possible future with the team.
However, any chances of that happening must have already been reduced after June 21 when news that Stepney was under investigation in relation to a question of sabotage at Ferrari.
.... and I think it was MrPonx, who loves McLaren, that said something about Ferrari officials declaring they can see a link between McLaren´s good form and the stolen documents...Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
... Fry also said he announced JT immediately about his meeting with Stepney and Coughlam... and what news do we have after that... Of course... that they are suspecting another McLaren employee... nothing about Fry
Are you that McLaren employee??? :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
I should have been a criminal lawyer - my mind works one step ahead of these guys.
Actually when you said this earlier I wasnt sure if that is the case. But now it seems like what you stated earlier might very well be the case. I gotta give you that...Lets wait and see what unfolds the next 2 days after the GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
I think they want the weekend to go on as normal and after that the real fireworks will commence...We fans are entitled to know the truth whatever be the case..
Can´t say I am but I´ve unveiled my identity on another thread... I´m Michael Schumacher.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Looking at it logically, I just couldn't see how any Ferrari plans would benefit a manufacturer who had possibly the fastest car on the track. Not this year's car anyway as a re-design would take at least 8 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by f1rocks
BUT for a team which has a car which runs like shyte, it makes perfect sense to try to get hands on a couple of decent designs and start on next year's car.
However, it does seem that Nick Fry is a decent guy and wouldn't have a BAR of it. But with the design of the current Ferrari and the top designer from McLaren, a very attractive proposition appears for a team which doesn't have a decent car.
Just refer to me as Valve Bounce QC in future; thanks in advance.
If Stepney and Coughlan were trying to land a job at Honda, why did Stepney give the Ferrari data to Coughlan? Both Coughlan and Stepney met with Fry so wouldn't it have been more prudent for them to each take their own teams data to the meeting rather than taking the risk of giving the Ferrari stuff to Coughlan? This is weird!
As it turns out, Coughlan figures it's OK to hand a 500 page document stamped "Confidential: Property of Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro" to a clerk at a copy store and ask him to whip up a couple of copies. That's not only weird, it's idiotic!
I don't think the makers of the next James Bond film will be asking either Stepney or Coughlan for tips on how to steal confidential data. :rolleyes:
It does seem increasingly likely that this is what was going on - two individuals planning their future elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
I wonder if those who immediately implicated, and accused, McLaren of wrong doing have changed their minds yet?
Hawkmoon - the makers of James Bond might not be knocking on Coughlan and Stepney's doors but I can imagine the writers of the next Mr.Bean movie taking an interest ;)
Its funny you should say that, because I've been speculating on how we might eventually find out that Ross Brawn and his white cat are the masterminds of the whole dastardly plan ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TMorel