Rally2+ won't happen as they will base the "new rules" on the current Rally1 regulations => spaceframe and third party hybrid unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
Printable View
Rally2+ won't happen as they will base the "new rules" on the current Rally1 regulations => spaceframe and third party hybrid unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
at one point I would also have supported a Rally2+ thing but it's clear neither FIA nor the teams want that. plus, it would be messing with a formula that is working fine as things stand now, and making it the top class and/or hybrid would increase the costs that make it "accessible".
i liked Richard Millener's thoughts on the matter
Extreme-E to start testing its new car in June. The car runs on Hydrogen and the new class will be called Extreme-H. Serie's owner dont know if its going to be a totally new Championship or something to compete together with the Electric Trucks. But... Anyway... Is the sport "moving forward" while I feel WRC is stuck in time :(
nobody cares about extreme e, franklyQuote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
I agree with you... HOWEEEEVER:Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
Hummer, Cupra, McLaren, Michael Andretti, Loeb, Nassr, Sainz, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg, Kristofferson, Tanner Foust, Emma..... What we have here in WRC? Ford pretending they have a team? At this point nobody care about WRC eithet, mate. But E-E is looking forward, WRC became DirtFish followers saying WE NEED RALLY2+
:(
If WRC is niche, then Extreme-E is a micro niche of a niche.
I liked the toughts off Millener also!Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
My personal thougts would be that they let each manufacturor use the power suply they wont to promote. Than think of a decent way to arrange BOP! A championship where different kinds of energys are used would be a new thing. And each manufacturor could promote there system. Difficult to work out, i know but imagine a championship where EV's compete whit combustion, hybrid and hydrogen cars.
Al systems being build now, in one championship. Each brand can promote to be champion, like brand A is champ in total (lets say whit hybrid), and brand B can still be saying we are the champs in hydrogen wrc.. Other one is best Electric car;;
Than the Millener thougts where several private teams build own cars, whit power suply system they can buy from manu teams.
Ain't they do" open test " in otepaa rally estonia with tanak and serderidis one week bedore rally sweden ??
I like this idea, although I know it could lead into problems with one being superior and requiring separate safety systems for each power sourceQuote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
One has to be careful playing with BoP. Ideally, it should level the field a bit, like it does in GT World Challenge. But in FIA championships such as WEC and WTCR it's often horrible, and it swings considerable advantages each round. For example in WEC, it often led to Ferrari being clearly the better car in rounds 1, 3, 5 etc. and Porsche being clearly the better car in rounds 2, 4, 6 etc.
GTWC and GT3 in IMSA and NLS also had issues for a while, both with their process and competitors gaming the system. They gradually got better over time. They also mandated more sensors so they can detect sandbagging. There are some articles and interviews in Race car engineering magazine about the details.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
No system is perfect but from a viewer point of view I prefer BOP to an arms race that ends up in escalating cost and teams leaving. I think that's the fundamental difference in the current wave of manufacturers interest in WEC and F1. Specifically the costs are way more predictable and in the case of WEC you are almost guaranteed to have a shot at victory. So the cost/benefit is pretty good especially due to Le Mans in WEC's case. The race is already sold out since December and they are building more stands and will probably issue more tickets.
The WRC needs better promotion and some form of more direct cost limitation to improve the ROI and some manufacturers will come. Capping testing is easily overcome. I could see a type of WEC BOP working. For those that don't know the, part of the WEC BOP is a mandated "performance window" of aero efficiency. They put the cars in a wind tunnel and there's a limit of how good a car can be. From the purist perspective it's horrible and artificial. From the viewer it means the teams can design interesting and different cars, just compare the Peugeot with the Ferrari for an example. Another way to go would be a Dakar type Equivalence of Technology and allow free drivetrain choice. Hybrids, EVs and Fuel Cell could compete. I think that's a bit further away. There are complaints about the EOT sure, but the alternative is people shrugging and saying we can't compete with X they have a huge budget and we can't keep up.
The WRC is not doing that bad, 5 drivers and 3 cars have won rallies in the last two years but it's on thin ice. What if MSport falls behind again and Hyundai go to F1? Do we watch Toyota sweep a few years clean or do we fall back to Rally2? Or do we have some plan? That's what WRC management should be asking themselves.
for me the BoP idea makes complete sense, not only from a manufacturer engagement standpoint, but from a historical view as well. rallying in the widely considered "golden age" of Group B was a bunch of different drivetrain, layout, body style, and construction concepts battling against each other. then in the group A and early WRC days (for me the true golden age of competition) there were supermini inline fours vs flat four saloons, etc etc.
of course I'm not saying this historical relevance is the reason I support BoP, but it just so happens that the best-regarded eras of the sport coincide with periods of regulations that promoted innovation and competition between different concepts with their own characteristics. moving forward with an open mind and allowing different power sources to compete on equal footing could be a good idea.
BoP seems to be a neccesary 'evil' if you want to attract more than a few manufacturers. It hasn't put off the many entering the WEC & IMSA series. I don't like it, but providing it's done properly, and openly, it can work to a degree; however I have a problem with it being changed after qualifying.....Once practice starts...then that should be it.
However, it's not likely to be needed in the WRC as I can't see them coming up with more than one 'formula' for future cars; Sportscars has historically seen differing cars/engines, etc Rallying in the recent era hasn't; the top class has been 2.0T 4WD, 1.6T 4WD.
Hmmm but we kinda know that motorsport is not about PROMOTING technological stuff anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
I mean, I think one can fool "f1" and "formula-e" fans in a way... but I think Rally fans are not like that.
Honestly, what has been promoted in F1 right now? Nothing but drama between drivers and the team's principals, right? In Formula-E there was something for a while. The electric engines, of course... but the actual advances were on batteries and chassis (all spec! Kudos to Williams and Dallara or whatever names they use) and thats it. Bmw, audi and Mercedes left simply because they were promoting nothing to no one haha. Idk man... I agree that WEC is having this boom, but its not going to last, its so obvious. I dont think motorsport is here to PROMOTE tech, u'know?
And at the same time, I dont think a "drive to survive" thing to WRC (or to ALL THE OTHER series.. since EVERYBODY now thinks every chapionship should copy that) would do anything for the sport. Theres no drama, no FIGHT on track, no angry driver saying sh*t on the radio... Its so confusing to think about "What should WRC do" right now IMO. Sooo weird.
The most fun I had watching Rallying in recent years was 2019 and 2020 ERC seasons tbh, so I honestly dont think having these big powerfull cars and manufacturers are NECESSARY to an amazing championship... tho i LOVE these crazy fast machines... ahahh IDK man, its so confusing
But rally is the ideal tool to promote your technology. Cars are also stil recognized as the production models. So thats an advantage for wrc over championships like f1 or even Dakar.
Use different drivetrains, but let them produce the same power output! That is a start.
For aero and suspension etc. Rules are still the same for all.
Constructor advertising a hydrogen powered (lets say) Toyota Yaris, can make posters/advertising whit car that is for sale in there showrooms! Thats 1 on 1 proof of how good the technology works. Customer (not die hard rally fan) doesn't need to know that (let's say) Hyundai whit petrol/hybrid is maybe faster sometimes.
To cut costs is also difficult, no space frame cars seems like a good start, R5 shell we could say. There's a lot of decent race teams around that can build cars like that(hansen in rx for example) those can than buy power unit from manufacturer like millner suggested.
The guys on WTCC foruns used to say THE EXACT same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
The "race on sunday sell on monday" works for less than 0,1% nowadays... AND u'd need a huge character to make that happen (like a Ken Block). And people who sees a car in a showroom will not start watching a racing series that runs for 3 days on a pay-to-watch model.
But these days a lot of customers are doubting wich type (read power suply) they would chose. So if a manufacturer can "prove" its a good system it might help!
Rally nowadays has less fans than in the past, whit different systems/fuels the potential of winning over new crowd is also bigger. (not one green guy wil support petrol/hy, cars anymore). So to get new public it would also be good.
Also, i think nobody now has the answer wat wil be bets choise in the future. And car manufactorors also are not sure, so for a global championship playing that card would be a smart move i think.
Keeping only petrol /hybrid, wil not make any new fans..
Yes, in theory it is. In reality - it's sadly not the case.....and that's down to those running the WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
I don't believe promoting technology via motorsports would get you more sales. Brand awareness, yes. The reason why I don't believe in the sales scenario is that now people look at cars differently. In a way all of them are the same, unless you go for the very basic cars that are still a decade or so behind current style with big screens and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
Of course there are the nutters who care about what some brand is promoting or representing when it comes to technology. But that's a tiny minority.
But the idea of opening up the top class for different approaches sounds like a good one.
Yes. Idk how BoP would work, but maybe something simple like X HP / Y Weight? Fuel Flow doesnt matter in rallying like in WEC, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
My IDEAL top class for 2025 would be: Electric Renault 3E vs Hydrogen Yaris vs Vermont's Subarus with Boxer engine vs The new car Skoda releases almost every year vs Ralliart using whatever they want vs whatever Toksport, PetterSolberg's team, Msport and ProDrive can get their hands on. It looks like more of a "rally2+" thing in my mind than the current Rally1 supercars but Im fine with that
The rally2 cars are all very similar nowadays, right? I mean, of course teams with more money can always improve that little extra, but in general they are all very close. Is there BoP in that class?
And cant WRC just elaborate something for the hydrigen yaris, the electric renault 3e and the boxer subaru to fit them in this class?
I mean, it looks simple... Or am I missing something? (Not considering the will of these brands to join)
Fuel flow is just another way of limiting engine power, in rallying its all done by air restrictors so you don't need expensive fuel flow meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
No BoP in Rally2, no BoP in rallying anyway as all regulations are traditional regulations where manufacturers build the best car they can within the parameters set by the regulations. And since all manufacturers were smart enough in the last twenty years to not bring something stupid to the party, no BoP was needed to help manufacturers that use a unsuitable base car to get competitive. GT racing only needed BoP to balance between all the different base cars, without BoP all manufacturers would field a mid engined carbon chassis with a turbocharged engine and land barges like a Bentley, Nissan GTR and BMW M8 would not stand a chance. The fact that Prototypes also have BoP regulations now is because the FIA/ACO/manufacturers f*** up when discussing the regulations. So BoP isn't really necessary in rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/w...lass/10425303/
Quote:
The WRC is expected to announce further details of its vision for the future at Rally Portugal in May which could include a new platform to allow alternative power methods to be developed within the championship.
While details of the class and its launch remain limited at this stage, it may follow a similar concept as seen at the Le Mans 24 Hours through its Garage 56 initiative.
“There will be more released around Portugal time around the new technical evolution [beyond 2025] and about having a demonstration class to allow experimental propulsion systems within the WRC, to provide that as a platform of experimentation and development and we are absolutely supportive of that and that will happen,” WRC event director Simon Larkin told Autosport
that could be the first good idea in ages!Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Renault is working on a Hybrid project to compete in Dakar.............................................
WRC loses again
Just for the sake of sharing infos on "THE FUTURE OF RACING" (.....) , the Scandinavian Touring Car STCC will be racing with only electric cars in 2023. I was not following the news from this championship, so this is news for me.
They'll have Teslas, BMWs i4 and VWs ID3... Cupra and another brand are also expected. I mean, not FACTORY TEAMS, I think they will all be running the same "STARD" machinery, but anyway... theres this visible path into motorsport where everybody races spec electric and hybrids parts because its cheaper or whatever... but they are slowly heading into that direction more and more. Idk if theres a turning point on "Well, we tried evs but lets just go back to regular engines build on our garages". Anyway.. just sharing this cuz Im interested ....in a way. The "junior class" for the STCC is also going full electric. From what Ive read, one of the teams will be runing an elecric MiniCooper.... thats rad IMO lol
https://www.touringcartimes.com/2022...-slots-filled/
BlackBook Motorsport Forum session at the Kennington Oval in London,27th April 2023 entitled ‘Monetisation masterclass’, including Ali Russell of #ExtremeE & Philipp Männer of #WRC, interviewed by Cian Brittle of BlackBook Motorsport.
The way by which motorsport series, circuits, teams and brands digitally engage with fans has transformed in recent years. Whether it be the shift to OTT and D2C platforms or the growth and popularity of original content, digital innovation is undoubtedly the key to success in today’s industry. In this monetisation masterclass, you will learn:
- How to best monetise digital platforms
- Why original content is the key to audience and viewership growth
- How OTT is becoming a fundamental part of growing revenue (OTT Apps, or Over-The-Top Applications, let your audience stream video from their preferred devices, like mobile smart TVs and tablets, whenever they want.)
Note: searching deeper into "monetisation WRC", those might be some of the topics discussed at the BlackBook Motorsport Forum:
"In nearly 50 years of the rally’s existence, we have seen numerous practical solutions trickle down into our world of classical event planning. I’ve compiled a list of 15 things that meeting planners can learn from the FIA World Rally Championship in hopes of helping you create better events after the corona crisis."
https://kongres-magazine.eu/2021/05/...-championship/
To be honest, I'd rather be more interested in F1 take than WRC. Just the level of effectiveness. Already when you compare F1 or the feeder series highlights on Youtube and WRC's, it's like comparing engaging content with bed time stories for the elderly.
The only masterclass the WRC knows is how not to run a global sports series.....Why would you get them in a discussion. Was nobody else available?
It'll be interesting if they do actually reveal any numbers regarding their monetisation of their digital platforms. They've publicly revealed very little over the years regarding how well All Live has actually done...
Very unlikely. Think Netflix still hasn't published any actually useful viewing metrics.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
Since the masterclass was about OTT (= WRC+) then WRC has a big advantage comparing with F1. Regarding the WRC cars, that is not the area of the promotor, here it is FIA who is calling the shots, so that is another discussion. But regarding F1, just check this devastating article, "Jalopnik spoke to several fans who attended F1's much-hyped race in Miami. The verdict wasn't good for the growth of the sport."Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
https://jalopnik.com/f1s-us-race-str...und-1850374011
“I don’t know if I had any expectations of Miami, but my biggest takeaway was that this race felt geared toward corporations rather than fans,”
“I had this bad feeling about it from the moment I bought my tickets,” he said. “I convinced my wife to swing by Monaco on our honeymoon. Miami’s prices? Blew Monaco out of the water.”
“But it was the first time at the track where I didn’t feel like I had anything in common with anybody else,” he added, his voice tinged with sadness. “I was like, this isn’t racing. This isn’t Formula 1. It’s a high-end selfie museum in a parking lot.”
In a thruthfull way, I do not think anyone assisting a WRC rally would make that kind of comments ...
It's getting a bit off topic, but it seems there's some misunderstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergiow
I was comparing the coverage of events on Youtube, the highlights videos by promoters. Nothing to do with the cars.
Realistically you have the linear and digital market. The reason I chose digital instead of OTT is that when you say OTT you mostly think SVOD, but there's so much more happening than SVOD. After SVOD came AVOD, now FAST and who knows what will be next year. Plus all other options. It feels a lot like smoke and mirrors, when it comes to digital.
I am a bit confused why are you bringing up a single Grand Prix. Aren't F1 GPs organized by separate companies who have a deal with the promoter and ticket sales profit the organizer of the GP? I do understand the FOMO effect mentioned in the article, but you need to be able to milk the popularity while you have it. If you don't do anything, then you'll be starting the next campaign from further back as well.
There are plenty of not the happiest experiences from WRC events as well. Be it the passed out drunks at noon, inexperienced marshals, idiots on stage that get the stage cancelled, etc. My personal favorite would be paid road side parking in Finland and a very long walk to the stage. But that was years ago by now.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hybri...25-wrc-season/
Compact Dynamics' contract hasn't been renewed for 2025 and FIA technical director says it's a possibility run the cars without hybrid unit.
My suggestion would be to let the teams develop the hybrid units.
That would be a worthy solution for a top category, but I don't really see the teams or any future interested parties liking that suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/david...ould-consider/
An opinion piece by Evans about the future direction of the regulations. I don't normally see Evans as a person worth listening too in regards of such topics, but this time he's quite sensible.
Nope, this is way off.
Specially the point that you could buy so many liters of efuel for the money spend on hybrid reveals something is backwards in his head. Kinda like saying coal is cheaper than gas so we should all use coal at home.
If going for low cost then run Rally2 on efuel.
If going for max manu PR then go for full electric.
Going for efuel without hybrid while keeping expensive Rally1 carbon prototypes mixes worst of two worlds.
"But what we have with e-fuel is an opportunity to genuinely change the world."
The words of a man who clearly has no clue just how horrible the stuff is, the damage it does to seals and gaskets in a 'traditional' gasoline fuel system, and how badly it will damage various components if you leave it in the car for too long.
It's the WRC's dirty little secret - the amount of engine oil that has to be thrown away to guard against terminal engine damage. A full oil change every service for every car using P1 fuel. Stick that in your headline, Davey boy. And it will happen in the Australian Outback, up the Zoji La pass, or any other obscure place you might pretentiously name-drop.
Hydrogen looks much more likely to be a long-term answer. Synthetic fuel is a stop-gap, and not a very nice one.
I agree re hydrogen. Any other fuel has a seriously bad effect on the environment either in production or pollution.
But getting this into rallying just isn't going to happen as most car manufacturers (except Toyota) have gone all-in on EVs and wont be changing any time soon.
In the meantime rallying is and has to be as dirty as every other type of transport and e-fuels are just a PR exercise to cover it up.