Well given that Rosberg was pouting for most of the year as he got his ass kicked and that Mercedes have been trying everything to appease him recently then I'd say that's whom he is talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Printable View
Well given that Rosberg was pouting for most of the year as he got his ass kicked and that Mercedes have been trying everything to appease him recently then I'd say that's whom he is talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I didn't think it was anybody specific as he said 'drivers'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
But if I had to speculate I would say perhaps Nico has been more difficult seeing as he has been the one behind and publicly unhappy for much of the season.
You're right that he did say "drivers" , but given that Nico has been unhappy with Lewis , not Merc , and Lewis has been unhappy with the team because of strategy , the second part of the statement seems to be directly pointed at Hamilton , doesn't it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Add it to recent events and I think it is , albeit couched in political correctness with the added "s" .
It was within an interview where he said one would have to go if they couldn't get along .
This was , in my opinion , a direct shot across the bow , and with Nico having just poled and won the last three , a warning for the Lewis camp .
He was just told that nobody is bigger than the team .
Whoever is second and finishes behind his team-mate, is unhappy. It is not rocket science. Just like Hamilton was unhappy late in the season.
Also there ARE tensions if you have got a top car and fight for the WDC. Because there is so much at stake as EVERYONE wants to win. Even the so-called second drivers would ideally like to win, but have to swallow the pride.
Of course Alonso and Button currently sit at the back and can smile together, because they have nothing to fight for. But imagine if team-mates Button and Alonso were at the front and battle for WDC, the knives would be out. You'll get guaranteed 'difficulties in relationship' if you fight for WDCs. No rocket science either.
Overall Hamilton and Rosberg have done fine together. Because there has been no major fall-out in the proportions of Senna vs Prost or Hamilton vs Alonso. Toto Wolff should know there is no ideal harmony in fight for WDCs. As long as there is no major fall-out, everything is "pretty fine". Let's be realistic with our expectations.
Well this is all just speculation. At the end of the day it could have been aimed at either driver, however, considering he was suggesting the lineup could change for 2017 and that Hamilton's contract goes until end of 2017 and Nico's is out next year, and that Hamilton is unequivocally the faster driver, I find highly unlikely they'd want to be rid of him. Plus, from a marketing perspective, Lewis is much more marketable than Nico. Nico is just a downright bore, whereas Lewis is out at events, meeting with celebrities, bringing the Mercedes brand and Petronas under the public eye. There's no way Mercedes are going to want to give that up instead of a slower guy that sits at home with his wife and kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
The simple fact is that it could be aimed at either driver, but Lewis Hamilton is box office and brings great attention to the team. Rosberg is boring and not as quick. It could be either but the likelihood, given all I've said above, is that Rosberg would be given the boot.
Well yeah. Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I guess it comes down to personal preferences.
I personally... don't care about the off-track "bling". Those celebrities can wear what they want and can give as crazy interviews as they can, but I could care less. My attention is on other things.
Hence I don't feel much relation to discussions about how 'bland' someone is. IMO the most important thing is that person/celebrity feels well and natural. If it is 'natural' for him/her to be bland, it is better, than go out of your way and make antics to desperately catch attention.
When I want to watch F1, I watch the race. If there is no race, I turn my attention to other activites, and do not try to follow "F1 off-track soap opera". Except practical things, like driver silly season, contracts, political/regulational decisions, and such.
But yeah, each to their own.:)
Judging by the article on the BBC today it seems Nico complains behind the scenes a lot more than Lewis. Like yourself I am trying to find evidence to swing this towards Lewis being to blame, but quite a few sources now are pointing towards Nico.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Now , Mr. Knight , you know what a contract is worth in F1 .Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
And , your Lewis has just been shown that they will change the car to suit Nico , despite his protests , and that Rosberg can win consistently as a result .
Behind the scenes , you'd have to figure that Rosberg was watching from the other side of the garage as Lewis tried to work with the new suspension .
And , thus , he saw it as an opportunity to show off in what he called a "mini-championship" of three races .
That's what he did , with poles and wins in all three .
All sewn up , with no drama .
Whereas Hamilton was such a pouty second that they had to hand him the strategy calls in the final outing .
Remember , they get the privilege of dealing with Lewis's antics for a much larger paycheck than old boring Nico .
You repeated a couple of times that Lewis is faster .
You're right that he was faster with the old configuration of the suspension , because it suited him rather than Nico .
Now , though , it's rather the other way around .
One could say that his flash marketing perspective is all he's got right now , without the outright pace to "humiliate" his team-mate , like he did earlier this year with a car that suited him rather than his team-mate .
Lewis is fast . Of that there is absolutely no doubt .
Any team would be happy with that .
And , he's outgoing , and going out to all the hot spots with all the hot people , bringing lots of bling and lines of press for F1 and his team , and any team should be happy with that .
But , he's trouble , and no team needs that .
I can't argue with that. Fairly put. Each to his own and no judgement.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
What evidence do you have that Lewis is 'trouble'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
You simply dislike him to the point all other objective discussion is pushed aside because of it. No speculation is ever put where Lewis is not to blame for anything in your eyes. Once upon a time you were like Jens. You didn't have a favourite driver but were able to give a measured opinion. Now it's just overly negative bias and that's very sad.
Maybe I should have said "has trouble getting along with team-mates , and strategists"Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Lewis is really good .
Make that really , really good .
But , he's got such incredible self-belief that it gets way under his skin way too fast if he's not faster than the guy in equal machinery .
And , usually , that's not a problem , because he is so damn fast .
The "trouble" of which I speak is the trouble to which Toto points .
It's not getting along with your team-mate , and questioning strategy .
It doesn't matter how many times you tell me that I hate or dislike Lewis .
It won't work .
I love the guy . He's great .
He's like a ticking time bomb , always good for controversy on track and off . You never know what's coming next .
Even if you say that Toto's words were a warning for them both , who do you think it rang louder for when he said that either of them could go ?
Do you think it would be the guy with the longer contract ?
Or , maybe the guy with the more lucrative contract ?
Or , perhaps the guy who just won them 2 titles ?
He's not bigger than the team .
And , I've never been as cool as Jens .
Unfortunately, it is sentences like this that let you down. The idea that any team would change modifications to intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers is just absurd. There is no evidence or nor has there ever been a suggestion from Lewis or anyone that Mercedes modified the car to suit Nico. They modified it to prevent a Singapore repeat with a side affect being it disadvantaged Hamilton. This is pretty obvious. I haven't read the rest of your post because you're back to making ridiculous stuff up again and I couldn't be bothered nitpicking at every line you write that is without foundation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
True, Mercedes had to modify the car for the higher pressures imposed by Pirelli. Clearly the resulting setup of the car has favored Rosberg with Hamilton looking somewhat lost and showing signs of frustration with the new setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I agree it would be wrong to suggest that Mercedes have made the changes to favor Rosberg. Rosberg has adapted better than Hamilton to the new setup, hence have beaten Hamilton fair and square to three consecutive pole positions and race wins.
That said, the resulting difference in performance between Rosberg and Hamilton is puzzling enough for many to speculate. At Abu Dhabi, it was over 0.300sec, which was clearly a huge reversal performance considering Hamilton was regularly about 0.200sec faster than Rosberg on most qualifying sessions prior to Singapore. That was a loss of roughly 0.500sec to a full second of performance. This sort of change is noticeable and very puzzling and food for wild speculations.
So , I'll take it as you needing me to rephrase what I said , so you won't misinterpret it again .Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Whatever Merc did with the suspension has disadvantaged Lewis .
He , himself , mentions that they wouldn't change it back despite his protests .
So , in actual fact , they have , knowingly , albeit with intent to make the car faster , given a distinct advantage to Nico , and a similar disadvantage to Lewis .
Now he's in the very same boat that Nico was in earlier in the year , unable to get the car working as well as his team-mate , and behind by about the same margin .
He's responded to Toto's rant about team unity , but only to "poo poo" it , saying :
“So it is difficult, but this side is always blown out of proportion. We have had 16 one-twos, so our relationship isn’t really causing any problems.It is not like he has been distracted and not finished high up or vice versa, so I think ultimately it is easy for people to take things for granted. We have both done a great job.”
So , the guy writing the check says there's a problem , and the guy who's getting the check says there isn't .
Anybody else see the problem here , or is it just me ?
I agree with you, Bagwan, in that if the guy writing the check (sort of) says that there is a problem, then there is a problem... within the team, at least. But I think it's more likely that Mercedes and Wolff are playing the long game here, looking ahead to 2017 and beyond, when the gap to Ferrari, and maybe Red Bull and others, will have probably closed. Both Hamilton and Rosberg scored enough points individually this year that even with Susie Wolff in the second car, Mercedes would have still captured 3rd place in the Constructors Championship. With this dominant monster of a car, either one of them, paired with a roughly competent second driver, could have probably delivered a Constructors trophy, which is what Mercedes really cares about. But once the gap closes (and it will), the question becomes, what driver lineup can still deliver the big annual trophy at the end of a season? Against a Vettel (or whomever) in a strong car, we know from past history that Hamilton can go wheel to wheel. We don't know that about Rosberg. We only know that on occasion he can deliver the goods. So despite his season ending form, if I'm looking at the long game, and also knowing the Nico's contract is up at the end of next season, I don't think that I'd be too confident, if I were Nico.
Hamilton's deal runs through the end of 2018, if I'm not mistaken. And while they could play with whether or not Lewis is on track in a silver car, Mercedes will still be writing him a $50 million (or whatever) check every year. IMO, they could just as easily find another, more obedient second driver to pair with Hamilton... unless Nico learns to sing "Don't Worry, Be Happy". My guess is, as Nico starts negotiating his new post-2016 contract in a few months, there will be terms in his new deal which will "encourage" him to sing along to that old Bobby McFerrin album. However it pans out, I think Mercedes is going to have to find a way to quieten things down between these two before the heated battle of 2017 and beyond begins.
I am wise (and old on the forums) enough not to get caught up in the my driver your driver BS thesedays..but tht sentence makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
What trouble has Hamilton caused exactly? (btw I am NOT a fan of LH , I do admire his driving skills)
if it's off track stuff etc no I'm not really bothered...but has he done anything to jeopardize his seat?
He is a triple WC. Of course every team would be dying to get him on-board.
Well , forum-wise , I'm older , and it seems you have been caught up in the conversation , so I'm not sure you are wise enough to stay out of it either , Storm , old man .Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
He doesn't get on with team-mates too well , and questions his team regularly .
You had better be fast if you are disruptive .
And , according to Toto , he was trying hard .
He just wasn't fast enough .
Bagwan is notoriously anti-Hamilton, hence his perspective is unlikely to be objective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
You know , Nitro , the world needs guys in black hats as well as ones in white ones .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Hamilton's bad boy rapper image fits perfectly with the series right now , and the disruption within the team has been what has really made it interesting this season .
Without the tension between Nico and Lewis , it could have been a much bigger yawn .
Sure , I've been on Nico's side in most of the debates this season , but I think I've been reasonably consistent in my assessments of the clashes .
I try not to get too bent out of shape when folks brand me on here .
But , I'd rather they debate about the actual topic .
If you think I'm wrong about anything , then , by all means , take me to task about it . I'm game .
And , don't worry , as Storm can take care of himself .
He's wiser than I , as I've been involved in this debate for longer .
The interesting thing about Toto Wolffs comments though, is he says he would change either of his drivers if their actions is damaging to the team. The thing that l am trying to fathom is what sort of actions that may have transpired this year by either driver, may be construed as damaging to the Mercedes team? Of course we don't know what happens behind the scenes in the garage. On track, l wonder if questioning the pitwall decision is perceived as damaging or what is said at driver press post race interviews.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
It just smacks of overreaction to me and a clear frustration with managing an equal status driver lineup. This year has on occasion looked like Merc were fostering someone else's unruly children and have had enough. Abu Dhabi was pretty ugly. The pitwall were quite heavy handed with Hamilton. The business with engine level seemed like Hamilton and his pitwall engineers were not on the same page. One can deduce from Monaco 2014 that Hamilton has some level of doubt of his pitwall engineers. The seemingly fractured relationship seem to have reached a point where it has spilled over into the public domain. This maybe what Wolff is uncomfortable with.
So if we say Toto has a situation where their star driver is losing or has lost faith in his engineers, how does he deal with that situation? Does he fire his star driver? or does he change his star driver's engineers to ensure he gets the best performance from him? I think Toto's comments reveals that Mercedes have a bigger internal problem besides the rivalry between Hamilton and Rosberg. It also reveals the Hamilton's drop of performance since Singapore is more than just changes to the car. It hints at operational issues on the Hamilton side of that garage that may underline the dramatic loss of form witnessed in Hamilton.
If this is the case, we could speculate that Mercedes' view on approach to the season has moved from that of Hamilton, there may be a misalignment that could result in Hamilton being dropped from the team. This of course would depend largely on what the Mercedes aspiration is. We can assume that they would still want to win both championships in Hamilton's absence if they decide to go in this direction. And they would need to retain Rosberg for his experience within the team and how close he was able to get to Hamilton. And they are hoping that Ferrari turn up with a car that is still less competitive to the Mercedes in 2016. And Rosberg can keep it together for the entire season without mistakes to secure both championships by the end of the 2016 season. This, l think would be an unneccessary risk, and l am not implying that Rosberg is unable to win a driver championship with the Mercedes. But objectively, a proven driver would be the way to go and parity status aside. l think it is time for Mercedes to wake up to the fact that, they cannot have parity status between a triple world champion and a driver yet to win a driver title, it is simply ridiculous. They need to win two more championships to match Redbull at least for the Mercedes return to F1 to achieve a status of a great modern day F1 team.
As far as dropping Rosberg is concerned, l don't see the point. They have a dream driver lineup. They need a driver that can deliver if the other driver is not. Having a driver that can push Hamilton, beat him on occasions or be within a tenth of Hamilton is where Rosberg is indispensible. A change of one of their driver lineup would mean having someone who would be learning the Mercedes in their first yeas hence would most likely be about half a second down from Hamilton or Rosberg, which would put Vettel closer to the hunt for the title championship. This is a very risky proposition. My guess is they would not change a winning formular, but tweak it by keeping both their drivers but change their internal composition. I agree with you that equal status may be thrown out as it is not working and distracting for the team. I also agree that a triple world champion is not going to be made a number 2 driver within Mercedes. Which begs the question, how is Rosberg going to react to a number 2 status?
Now you know how it feels when you brand other people without looking at their posts properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Ew , that must have stung then .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Sorry .
See , though , with your last post to Jag there , it shows that you do understand my point , and very well , I might add .
Which , makes your toss-in about me to Storm a little rich .
Just like the deep dark Knight , who admitted not reading the rest of the post because of a single statement at the start , you took offense at "super-fan", when perhaps you should have defended why I called you that , which was because you suggested he may not have been trying .
As it turns out , he was trying , and really hard , because none of them likes being the first loser .
And that goes double for Lewis .
Lewis fans know this , and that's why we like him .
The hard core British Lewis Hamilton fan , in general , can sometimes find his antics tiring and hard to defend , but I can't wait to see what he gets up to next .
The drama is great to watch , but I can't imagine trying to manage him in the team .
I just read that Wolff reiterated his comment (threat?) about looking closely at his driver pairing going forward, if the relationship between Hamilton and Rosberg causes problems within the team. Because he's been very careful not to call out either driver individually, it's making me think that he's just launching a shot across the bow of both drivers. As for one driver being harder to manage than the other, we don't know what the references to "behind closed doors" is about. Other than Rosberg's hat toss and the ensuing Paddy Lowe death-stare and Hamilton's pouting, we aren't privy to what Wolff is really talking about.
But I can't see that Hamilton (or Rosberg) is any harder to manage than Alonso or Vettel. In fact, I'd say that he's probably easier to manage than Alonso. And young Verstappen appears to have many of the same defiant, cut-throat traits. As I've said before, other than Hill, Hakkinen and Button, I can't think of a sweet & easy going WDC over the past 25 years. Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have all been giant pains in the @$$ for their teams at one time or another. I understand that Wolff wants to keep a lid on the boiling pot. But IMO, it just comes with the territory, unless you bring in a doormat second driver to be paired with your designated #1.
Maybe Toto will deliver the same talking points to both drivers in private conversations, thereby getting his message across and calming one or both down a bit. But my guess is, he's not going to really spell out which one (or both?) could be in danger going forward. We only know who has a current, longer term, big money contract (with more race wins and now three World Driving titles) and who doesn't. Lewis will be 33 or 34 by the time his contract is up. And by then, I'll be very surprised if the Mercedes is anywhere near as dominant as it is now. He might leave on his own for greener pastures. And unless Rosberg pulls a WDC title out of the hat over the next year or two, I'd say that Hamilton will find a lot more doors open to him than a 33 year old, titleless Rosberg. So if I woke up in late February 2016 and my name was Nico, I'd just do my best and not rock the boat too much throughout the season. Otherwise, when I woke up in late February of 2017, I might be reporting to Monisha Kaltenborn... asking her why my paycheck is late AGAIN!
Where does Nico go from here ,was the question ?
Well the naughty step with the red peaked hat on would be o k by me .But for them turning down Lewis,s car and Lewis not being bothered once he had the title ,Nico would be throwing the toys out of the pram or hats again .Grow up Nico ,look at Vettel and see what a true German driver presents himself ,usually always smiling ,even though he is not in the dominant car
If Mercedes is micro detuning a driver's car to fix the race results, whether it's Hamilton's (late season) or Rosberg's (early season) then they should be banned from F1 for the next 20 years - polygraph tests are in order here.