Military might has zero to do with gun ownership in general population. And zero to do with this thread.
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Military might has zero to do with gun ownership in general population. And zero to do with this thread.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
What about Irak? Afghanistan? Those started out of the blue, right?!
I have difficulties understanding flawed attempts at defending the undefendable. I admit this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Whoa, do you feel threatened by my comments? Need a gun to defend yourself maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
What has the goat to do with the spaceship?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
Ioan its not a goat it is a Moose
Do you need to be banned again? Since I'm not a Mod these days, I can't do it, but I'll be happy to report your insults if you wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
A visit to Speakers Corner in the West End is testament to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I always take my milk box when I visit London. :)
There's been a lot of claiming of freedom and rights.
Surely the basic right to go to work in the morning and come home safe in the evening overrides other rights such as the right of a state to have an armed militia and by extension the right of its citizens to possess guns?
By the way can somebody explain why states need the right to raise armed militia supplementing the federal forces and hence the need for citizens to possess arms.
I'm still waiting for an answer to why guns shouldn't be allowed in schools .
I think they are allowed in ArizonaQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
That's because the federal forces are not large enough to sustain long engagements or multiple theater actions by themselves. The state national guards and reserves are rotated into combat areas as needed. There have been multiple deployments of them in all recent military actions - Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. - going back to Korea and WWII.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
Is this true?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/17/4y2e3y3a.jpg
Yes. It happened at Dunblaine Primary School.
And yes the Firearms (Amendment) Acts were passed in 1997.
Every other statement in that blurb is also true.
The point is that the UK acted on this, which is something I can pretty well guarantee will not happen in the US.
Dead children is an acceptable price for "freedom" in America.
I've been going through many of the posts on this thread. I think everyone needs to take a step back and reconsider what this topic is all about.
We are supposed to be discussing the massacre of 20 innocent infants and 7 adults. Hurling masked insults at each other is not conducive toa sensible discussion on such a tragic event.
well while we are having this discussion lets at least balance out the history: Now I have not checked on bombings but will probably do that as well.
April 1982 - SOUTH KOREA - Police officer Woo Bum Kong went on a drunken rampage in Sang-Namdo with rifles and hand grenades, killing 57 people and wounding 38 before blowing himself up.
August 19, 1987 - BRITAIN - Michael Ryan, a 27-year-old gun fanatic rampaged through the English town of Hungerford, killing 16 people and wounding 11 before shooting himself.
July 1989 - FRANCE - A French farmer shot and killed 14 people including members of his family in the village of Luxiol, near the Swiss border. He was wounded and captured by police.
December 1989 - CANADA - A 25-year-old war movie fan with a grudge against women shot dead 14 young women at the University of Montreal, then killed himself.
November 1990 - NEW ZEALAND - A gun-mad loner killed 11 men, women and children in a 24-hour rampage in the tiny New Zealand seaside village of Aramoana. He was killed by police.
September 1995 - FRANCE - A 16-year-old youth ran amok with a rifle in the town of Cuers, killing 16 people and then himself after an argument with his parents.
March 13, 1996 - BRITAIN - Gunman Thomas Hamilton burst into a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot dead 16 children and their teacher before killing himself.
April 28, 1996 - AUSTRALIA - Martin Bryant unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.
April 1999 - USA - Two heavily-armed teenagers went on a rampage at Columbine High School in Littleton, Denver, shooting 13 students and staff before taking their own lives.
July 1999 - USA - A gunman killed nine people at two brokerages in Atlanta, after apparently killing his wife and two children. He committed suicide five hours later.
June 2001 - NEPAL - Eight members of the Nepalese Royal family were killed in a palace massacre by Crown Prince Dipendra who later turned a gun on himself and died few days later. His youngest brother also died later raising the death toll to 10.
April 26, 2002 - GERMANY - In Erfurt, eastern Germany, 19-year-old Robert Steinhauser opened fire after saying he was not going to take a math test. He killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two pupils and a policeman at the Gutenberg Gymnasium, before killing himself.
October 2002 - USA - John Muhammad and Lee Malvo killed 10 people in sniper-style shooting deaths that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area.
April 16, 2007 - USA - Virginia Tech, a university in Blacksburg, Virginia, became the site of the deadliest rampage in U.S. history when a gunman killed 32 people and himself.
November 7, 2007 - FINLAND - Pekka-Eric Auvinen killed six fellow students, the school nurse and the principal and himself with a handgun at the Jokela High School near Helsinki.
September 23, 2008 - FINLAND - Student Matti Saari opened fire in a vocational school in Kauhajoki in northwest Finland, killing nine other students and one male staff member before killing himself.
March 11, 2009 - GERMANY - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in black combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police. Two additional passers-by were killed and two policemen seriously injured, bringing the death toll to 16 including the gunman.
June 2, 2010 - BRITAIN - Gunman Derrick Bird opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. Bird also killed himself.
August 30, 2010 - SLOVAKIA - A gunman shot dead six members of a Roma family and another woman in the Slovak capital Bratislava before killing himself. Fourteen more people were wounded.
April 9, 2011 - NETHERLANDS - Tristan van der Vlis opened fire in the Ridderhof mall in Alphen aan den Rijn, south of Amsterdam, killing six before turning the gun on himself.
July 22, 2011 - NORWAY - Police seize a gunman who killed at least 68 people at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the small, holiday island of Utoeya. Anders Behring Breivik is later charged with the killings, as well as with an earlier bombing in the center of Oslo which killed at least eight people. He appears in a closed court hearing in Oslo on July 25 and is ordered detained for eight weeks in solitary confinement.
You can cut and paste lists of atrocities until the cows come home, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do something. Nobody is deluded enough to suggest a ban or a restriction on gun ownership would suddenly eradicate all shootings, but it would certainly reduce them over time and surely that's worth it. There will of course be those who ignore the law and get hold of guns or explosives somehow, that's a given, but maintaining the status quo helps nobody.
I heard Obama's words, particularly "we must change", but I don't hold out much hope.
Australia almost immediately set about removing all automatic and semi-automatic weapons because of this. The net result? In 2011 the total number of people killed with guns was 30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
Australia went from a place that was 11 times safer than the United States on a per capita basis to 25 times safer than the United States on a per capita basis.
Australia took appropriate action and dealt with the issue. The United States on the other hand is too childish to do so.
If we are comparing there have been 3 multi person public shootings in a couple of weeks in the states, one in a shopping centre, one hospital and now the school. Mercifully the 1st 2 "only" killed a few people, but the shopping centre 1 had the potential to be far worse (IIRC the assault weapon he was using jammed). I believe I also read there have been 12 mass shootings in the USA this year, although I'm not sure of the criteria to qualify as a mass shooting.
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This was a truly shocking event. There should be tighter gun regulations in the USA, for sure. However, the gun didn't go off by itself - what is more important is that it is found out why this man did what he did, and how this can be stopped in future. If it wasn't a gun, he could've used something else (albeit probably to a lesser degree).
The focus should be on getting to the root of the problem, not just banning guns. The guns were the tool used, the cause was the mind of the perpetrator.
Video games have nothing to do with this either. Anybody of sane rationality knows the vast difference between reality and a computer game.
That's the biggest issue - sound mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
If someone with a sound mind can suffer an event to change the state of mind to unsound, then how do you predict this in an individual who applies to own or has access to guns.
Loner is a word that crops up a fair bit.
I disagree since shootings like this have more to do with the fundamentalism of the CitizensQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark
of the USA rather then the access to weapons. In the USA it seems like nudity are considered extremely
morally wrong to such an extent that even nipple slips like the one at super bowl are considered
to be something that will twist the minds of the American people.
While violent tv-series and movies doesn't seem to be a problem.
The USA are still involved in two wars that have killed hundreds of thousands of people Several thousands
of those are American soldiers and yet many Americans defend these wars as "pre-cautionary self defence",
in the same way as NRA preaches their mantra that more weapons will make things better despite that
common sense says the opposite.
Then you have US police officers who doesn't seems to hesitate to use the weapons:
Bureau of Justice Statistics Arrest-Related Deaths, 2003-2009 -- Statistical Tables
During the period 2003-2009 almost 5000 people were killed by US Law enforcement officers.
How many people in Europe were killed by Law enforcement officers during the same time period?
Then you have death penalties, US is the only western country that still uses the death penalty
and imo it seems that many still considers this as public entertainment.
To summarize this the problem is not the guns but rather the US citizens aggressiveness and obsession
with guns, killing, retribution and etc. IMO USA seems stuck in the old days of the 19th century (think western movie).
That post has so many inaccuracies and stereotypes in it it would take a page of comment to rebut.Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
Agree, especially on assault automatic weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
My thoughts, exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
Here you kind of contradict your own argument. Video games are a major way of blurring the line between the reality and a game. Unless there's somebody to tell a kid there's a difference he will grow up thinking killing is perfectly okay beecause that's what he spent his childhood doing. Given the fact that family is not too much of an influence these days (c'mon, that redundant conservative thing), millions of kids grow up in an entertainment universe with no line between real life and fantasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
I don't see it as 'not too much of an influence', rather lazy parenting. It's so much easier to put your feet up and watch your favourite soap opera if the kids are stuck in front of the computer all day long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
Yep restrictive Gun laws is working out just great for you guys,
http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-conte...729-PM.bmp.jpg
BTW the USA comes in with 386.3 per 100,000 residents.
If you are ignorant of the facts why do you insist on commenting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
One more time.
What you call "Assault" weapons are just mean looking guns and Automatic rifles are heavily regulated, cost 1000's of dollars and require a F.B.I. background Check along with permission from the local constabulary.
OK Nobody is walking down to the local gun shop and walking out with a machine gun. Got it?
It's too bad that with all the FREEDOM (this word has to be uppercase, right?) that our American neighbours have, they are not FREE to elect a government that they are not afraid of.
Good Lord Vop, don't even bother posting... :sQuote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
Afraid? Not at all. The government is afraid of us. And that is how it should be.
Oh, how spiffing!Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
You do realise the population densities may just skew the figures an teeny itty wittle bit, don't you.
Apparently, they only had one fatal shooting in oompa loompa land last year - shame it was a 50% death rate though, and the population has suddenly halved...... :rolleyes:
Yes Tony and that is why the Gov wants our guns so badly. Obama wants is own protection force much like the Republican Guard. How many civilians now dead in Syria?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
But due to the vicious and violent history of the Euros they need to live under strict control of the Government and military. Sh!t you can't even go to a Soccer game without
risking you life.
I'm finding it hard tell if you're being serious or mocking Mr. Vop?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
It's more to be certain that some future government doesn't decide that we don't need elections. There is a difference between the two you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
I assume you didn't bother to read the column header on the right side of the chart?Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
We are talking (multiple) death(s) from gun crime are we not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
The table Mr. Vop posted uses data from each individual nations records. It may be worth noting that what is classed and reported as a 'violent crime' will vary from country to country. So any comparision between nations is pointless.
According to the BBC, his mother pulled him out of the school and taught him at home because she was unhappy with the school district's plan for his education.
Was she also a prepper? Preparing for the -in her mind- imminent social chaos by (legally!) hoarding guns and teaching her son to use them.
She didn't live to see the social chaos her son caused.
The solution? Not more control or disarming of the borderline deranged, that would go against their freedom and enrage the vops, no... arm all the teachers! Riiiight. :dozey:
Did the place you copied that from include tables for burglary, for robbery and for homicide?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Are the definitions the same in all countries considered?