Same Sex Marriage

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I could well be a poor father, that's how opinions work.

Try to understand - this is my opinion. Does not make me any more or less correct, it's just how I feel.

Lets say you and your partner adopt a child - a boy for arguments sake. I don't agree with that, but I'm not going to go hunting you down or start burning crosses on your lawn.

How do you broach the subject, come the right time, as to girls, and courting. Until that child is old enough to understand, he will see two men as his father as normal. Now, if he is gay, no problem.

But, if he is heterosexual, do you not suppose that he might be a little confused up until that point of understanding?

How then would you bring up a girl?

I'm sorry, but seriously, I really don't see how it can work.

Good luck to you, whatever you do. But my opinion will be as it is.

I don't think you are inferior (which I think you think that's what I think), but I don't see how you can expect to have the same rights to children when, naturally, it cannot happen.

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Someone might have meanwhile addressed this but hey I'll also give it a try.

I think that homosexuality is not learned, it is not a result of one's environment either. It is a genetic predisposition as far as I can tell from what I've heard, read and seen about it.

I've never been educated by my parents about what is wrong or right, about having to feel attracted to women or men. It was a natural attraction to women (or even better said girls when I was a kid).

Given that all homosexual individuals were born to opposite sex couples I think that it is obvious that the sexual orientation of the parents is not the reason why a person will become attracted to the opposite sex, to the same sex or to both.

And to round it up I pretty much prefer a kid to be adopted by a caring homosexual pair then by a catastrophic opposite sex couple who doesn't know how to care a bout a child.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Seriously. Kids get beaten up by other kids for being fat, spotty, or wear glasses. What's going to happen to the kid with two dads?

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Why would the other kids know that a kid has two dads?
Most of my colleagues in school never knew who my parents were.
This is not as obvious as being fat or wearing glasses

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Originally Posted by Bezza

Would you say Michael Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver of all time just because he has won more races than anybody else?

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Yep!

I think this is the major social issue of the recent time.I don't like it.There should be legislation over this issue.Its really unrealistic and unnatural.No single religion of the world allow this.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

The point I was trying to make is that the debate of same-sex marriage is a straightforward as it involves only the couple. The debate is expanded when adoption is introduced because the wellbeing of the child needs to be considered.

I’m sure that a same-sex couple is more than capable of nurturing a child but I can only assume that there are potential psychological issues to be considered for a child raised by parents of the same sex in a world where the majority is the opposite.

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There are quite a few cases where kids in society are brought up by couples (of opposite sex) which are still very different from what the majority is, do they all develop serious psychological issues?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Why would someone voluntarily join an institution, assuming they are intelligent enough to understand what membership of said institution entails, then take issue with it's policies?

If it is voluntary and you don't agree with it, don't join?

That's neither rocket science nor brain surgery.

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Have you been voluntarily baptized? Don't think so.
The problem is that the church is still seen as an institution instead of just being seen as a club where people become members or decide to leave.
Why do you think that the large majority of the kids are baptized when they are just a few months old, instead of much later when they can decide for themselves?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Try to understand how over here (UK) our history and laws are intermingled with religion.

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That is no reason for continuing down the same path instead of choosing a change for better.

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Originally Posted by Big Ben

I think I've been fair enough. Most of his replies have been aggressive and outright rude. The posts he replied to and the people who wrote them didn´t deserve the tone and the words used (for what they wrote here at least). That's how I see it and it has nothing to do with his orientation. I think someone sharing my POV expressing himself like that would do us all a favor if he shut up.
He seems to be to gay people what gigi becali is to Christianity (he is a self proclaimed defender of Christianity that any real Christian is ashamed of)

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BDunnell did not offend you in any way, you're just taking part in this discussion as you have an interest in trying to prove that homosexuals are aggressive, which is a stupid generalization that you are making due to you prejudice.

PS: Gigi Becali is a product of the extremist christians that inhabit the space called Romania, and proof for that is the support he receives from the orthodox church.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Many atheists marry in churches because they want a church wedding, if only because the surroundings are nicer. I don't think this is in any sense hypocritical or problematic.

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I have to disagree on this one.

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Originally Posted by Wallingtonlifts London

Personally,,why not,, the thing is, we don't always think
The same thing at the same time,, if at all.. It's meeting the
Person who shares the same thought.... If your lucky : ).. Regards Jason

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Jason, your keyboard has an issue with punctuation.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Look, I seem to be percieved as this evil gay bashing luddite. I am only discussing my views and opinions.

We had a guy at work that was homosexual - he was the office manager - and bloody good at his job. He was a very nice chap, we both got on well and often socialised.

He had a civil partnership, and lived with his husband.

They were both invited and came to my wedding.

Now, why would I want to do that - because I am a bit shallow and want to 'keep up with the Jones'

He was welcomed into our church service.

Just because the church does not allow same sex marriages, does not mean it cannot tolerate homosexuals.

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You're not the big bad guy, no way.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the last phrase in your post is pointing out the issue that this thread is all about, homosexuals do not want to be tolerated, they want to have equal rights.

For my part I don't understand why people fight to have the right to get married by an institution which doesn't want them. But then again I'm not a believer.

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Originally Posted by king

I think this is the major social issue of the recent time.I don't like it.There should be legislation over this issue.Its really unrealistic and unnatural.No single religion of the world allow this.

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Any chance you can tell us why it is unnatural?
And what else should be legislated other than homosexual marriage? Come on, let it out.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Who by? Not me,

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By the chap citing me as a bad father as he does not understand my opinion.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Yes, and it's those views and opinions that portray you as such.

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Totally incorrectly mind you. You've drawn your conclusion about me and my family, without any room for tolerance whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

There is no comparison whatsoever between my intolerance of backward views on homosexuality and the fact that others are intolerant of homosexuals. You, and others, are making judgements on people based entirely on what their sexuality happens to be. I am reacting to those opinions based on what has actually been said, not some prejudice I might have. See the significant difference?

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It is only backwards to you - have you not worked that out yet?

I can happily tolerate homosexuality. The fact they I don't see two parents of the same sex should bear or foster children does not mean I am intollerent of homosexuality - it is just a natural limitation.

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Originally Posted by ioan

One thing I hate to hear is: That's life!
Life is not perfect, so what about trying to make it better instead of shoving 'That's life!' in the face of all those who dare to question things which are plain wrong?

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If it is not life and natural - what is it - Artificial?

Artificial is not real.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep!

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Surprise! :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

You're not the big bad guy, no way.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the last phrase in your post is pointing out the issue that this thread is all about, homosexuals do not want to be tolerated, they want to have equal rights.

For my part I don't understand why people fight to have the right to get married by an institution which doesn't want them. But then again I'm not a believer.

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And don't want to use that right regardless........

I'd like to be filthy rich - not gonna rob a bank though, as that is not legal.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

It is only backwards to you - have you not worked that out yet?

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Apparently not, given the millions of other people in favour of gay marriage and adoption. Your statement is factually incorrect.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I can happily tolerate homosexuality.

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How wonderfully generous of you.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

The fact they I don't see two parents of the same sex should bear or foster children does not mean I am intollerent of homosexuality - it is just a natural limitation.

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A limitation that is non-existent except in your mind.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I'd like to be filthy rich - not gonna rob a bank though, as that is not legal.

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An asinine comparison.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You've drawn your conclusion about me and my family, without any room for tolerance whatsoever.

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Says the man who believes there should be a blanket ban on homosexuals adopting and marrying, for no good reason whatsoever. My opinion on your parenting abilities is based precisely on how you portray yourself in this thread, which is as a bigot with a significant degree of intolerance towards people who don't happen to conform to your own bland, restrictive norms. I don't think such people would be the best parents. You, on the other hand, have come to a conclusion about the parenting abilities of myself and other people like me on the basis of our sexual preferences and nothing more. There is no comparison between my comments about you and yours about me.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the last phrase in your post is pointing out the issue that this thread is all about, homosexuals do not want to be tolerated, they want to have equal rights.

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Exactly. 'Tolerate' is a pretty dreadful word to use about a fellow human being on the basis of nothing more than whether they happen to like having sex with people of the same gender. One's view of someone should be based on factors other than that.

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Originally Posted by ioan

There are quite a few cases where kids in society are brought up by couples (of opposite sex) which are still very different from what the majority is, do they all develop serious psychological issues?

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Another very good point. How can anyone define 'normal'?

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Originally Posted by ioan

I have to disagree on this one.

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Well, I like church buildings. My preferences would be for a civil wedding in church.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I don't care what same sex marriage has to do with it, as in this instance I was referring to the fact that you were enquiring what do we do with unwanted children. Well, prevention is better than cure.

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What do you mean by your last sentence? I hope you don't mean that suppressing homosexuals is the key to getting rid of this topic altogether.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

I think Straight couples should be given preference. You can call that bigoted if you want, BDunnell, but in reality it isn't - its a free-will opinion of mine - and it is not like I'm enforcing that opinion as fact.

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Sir, I think that's absurd. The vetting process for parents who want to adopt would be the best choice, and not just the straight or gay option. I really don't think you're a bigot, so please don't raise that claim against me. I do think that you're misinformed about gay couples being able to adopt. The mountain of crap any couple has to go through here in USA to adopt a child is equally tedious for hetero/homo- sexual couple.

You should read and think before posting. I don't agree with it, not asking for a ban.

Prevent unwanted children.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You should read and think before posting. I don't agree with it, not asking for a ban.

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I did read what you wrote, and it didn't fully explain what you meant. That's why I asked a question, sir. There's no need to be curt with your response. If you don't agree with homosexuals, then that's your problem. Try therapy.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Prevent unwanted children.

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That's a laughable notion here in USA. The Republican Party is hellbent on reducing women's rights and limiting their ability to get birth control. Also, Conservatives are against abortion and have tried to reverse Roe v. Wade. Most "unwanted" children are born into families who do not have the funds or the competence to raise a child in modern society.

Gay couples have been great for kids who get left behind, and stuck in foster care. People argue that it's bad for the adopted child to be with a gay couple because it causes bullying in school. Maybe if other brats in school learned how to be more accepting, then that wouldn't be an issue.

My bad Gloomy. Was posting on Blackberry waiting recovery with a puncture late last night. My first reply was not to you but Ben.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

People argue that it's bad for the adopted child to be with a gay couple because it causes bullying in school. Maybe if other brats in school learned how to be more accepting, then that wouldn't be an issue.

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This is one of the worst arguments of all. It's like saying that someone who's the subject of a racist attack is to blame because of their skin colour.

Oh, and many of those who would deploy this argument against gay adoption are also the sort of individuals who go on about the need for personal responsibility...

How are they be to blame? That is a silly argument to make a point out of nothing to attempt to justify a viewpoint.

Children don't have the understanding of adults. They just see differences, and you will always see bullying when someone is different. Be that their hand-me-down attire, their physical size, their parents (old etc).

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

How wonderfully generous of you.

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You paint your own picture with comments like that.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Surprise! :)

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Objectivity.

Guys, can we please discuss the thread's subject instead of the posters?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

How are they be to blame? That is a silly argument to make a point out of nothing to attempt to justify a viewpoint.

Children don't have the understanding of adults. They just see differences, and you will always see bullying when someone is different. Be that their hand-me-down attire, their physical size, their parents (old etc).

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You basically said that if a child with two fathers gets bullied about this, it's only to be expected. Do you believe that bullying on grounds of difference is OK — that it should just be accepted as a fact of life? If so, you're not a very humane person. Such an attitude, in my view, also casts further doubt on your parenting skills. Do you want your kids to grow up merely as what you consider to be 'normal', so that they blend into the background and don't attract the bullies, or would you wish them to be different and individual?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Guys, can we please discuss the thread's subject instead of the posters?

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The two are inextricably intertwined, given the extent to which this subject is a matter of personal opinion and, to some extent, personal experience.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

You basically said that if a child with two fathers gets bullied about this, it's only to be expected. Do you believe that bullying on grounds of difference is OK — that it should just be accepted as a fact of life? If so, you're not a very humane person. Such an attitude, in my view, also casts further doubt on your parenting skills. Do you want your kids to grow up merely as what you consider to be 'normal', so that they blend into the background and don't attract the bullies, or would you wish them to be different and individual?

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Funnily enough I don't think any form of bullying is OK. I am however realistic enough to know it will not stop because you cannot change the cruel aspect of human nature. Wrap it up or word it however you wish, it will go on sadly.

My kids will be parented by us as we were parented ourselves. We wont fill our kids with sweets or use sweets to pacify them. This will lead to obesity, which, aside from being unhealthy will lead to teasing in school etc.

They will be taught right from wrong - to be courteous, not be greedy etc.

The blending into the background bit intrigues me Ben. If I'd prefer my children to be well behaved in public rather than loud, obnoxious, unruly and rude, then yes - give me blending in any day.

I quite like the fact that often, we are commented on our childrens behaviour when we are out. It is also quite amusing that it is the older generation that often make these comments - the ones that have the most life experience.

Please tell me, because I worry myself about this;

When my daughter gets to the age where her body changes, and she will not want her father to see her naked etc, she will turn to, among others such as friends etc, her mother for advice or just to talk about these changes.

How would that work in a same sex parent situation, where both the parents are male. Or what when the child asks about its mother?

I struggle with that, because I genuinely see that as a hurdle that the child will struggle with.

Finally, however my children turn out, they will be individual.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

How would that work in a same sex parent situation, where both the parents are male. Or what when the child asks about its mother?

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The same as it works when the mother is -for whatever other reason- missing?

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

The same as it works when the mother is -for whatever other reason- missing?

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OK, sure.

I kinda should have suggested in a surrogate mother situation.....

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

You basically said that if a child with two fathers gets bullied about this, it's only to be expected. Do you believe that bullying on grounds of difference is OK — that it should just be accepted as a fact of life? If so, you're not a very humane person.

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It is to be expected, as kids will pick on children they see as vulnerable. Now you would say thats the parents fault. But 30 children in a class, and 1 has two fathers - once the kids get to the age where they "sort of" understand this, then they will have a field day. And no amount of parental guidance will stop this. Kids pick on kids already, why would this be any different? However, by allowing same-sex adoption - you are creating another option for bullying, so for the good of the child same-sex adoption cases should be looked at carefully. Men/women couples should be given preference (quality pertaining of course, but this veto process is done anyway) - as this will give the child the BEST chance of success.

I hate to use the term "survival of the fittest" but school really is like that, I've been through it!

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Such an attitude, in my view, also casts further doubt on your parenting skills. Do you want your kids to grow up merely as what you consider to be 'normal', so that they blend into the background and don't attract the bullies, or would you wish them to be different and individual?

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How does it cast doubt on his parenting skills? What ARE you on about?! Are you suggesting that he should want his children to be homosexual so that they can be be "different" and "individual"? I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here.

Sounds like SGWilko is doing a good job of being a father. If many same-sex couples have the attitude of you, BDunnell, I doubt they would be brought up correctly - as you are too bitter towards people of differing opinions, and that would impact upon the children.