Maybe because of the plastic cramp surrounding it?
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Maybe because of the plastic cramp surrounding it?
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From what I've been told, this is an early build. A lot can change during the next months.
Sorry, I shall use word column, not rack. My bad ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Nice intro for Peugeot 208 r5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QgXL...layer_embedded
By GP Week also Renault is planning to develop a R5 car. At the end of the red “box”.
GP Week : Issue 170, Page 1
How come the Renault R5 have a paddle shift gearbox? I thought this kind of gearbox system was forbidden after the introduction of the new kind of WRCars after 2011, or is the regulation just for the WRCars?
Isn't it meant for stock Clio RS?
Oh, you are right. I thought he refer to the R5 version. But am I correct that paddle shift gbox are not allowed for R5? Also can they have steering mounted gear lever as current S2000 cars or they must be mounted on the floor as the WRCars?
That's not different between S2000 and WRC. You can use both if it is purely mechanical. In Fiesta S2000 it is also mounted on the floor as they don't use cables for having the lever at the steering wheel like in 207 or Fabia. I guess it is same for R5, anything what is purely mechanical can be used.
And with the Mini it's mounted at steering wheel.
Fantastic news for our friends from Portugal: Bruno Magalhaes seems to aim driving the 208 R5 in 2013 !!! :)
Edit: a computer pic :cool: http://www.behance.net/gallery/Auto-...ations/5415129
That would be nice Tom, that livery suits it :)
That's just a study made by a Portuguese designer! Nothing serious... Bruno it's currently stopped, and for what I heard Peugeot Portugal is more interested in bringing the 208 R2 and made a Cup out of it!
I just hope the rumours about Renault are true. It's been long since we've seen them at the top of national championships and this could create some great opportunities for a driver like Kris Princen.
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Will we see more R5s in 2013 than the 208, or are the rest planned for homologation in 14 ?
Ford Fiesta R5 and Citroen DS3 R5
M-Sport may run an R5 Fiesta in ERC in 2013.
Sounds great but did you read something about the driver, will he have real M-Sport technical support or they will just sell the car to people like Slowov, Oleksowich etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
It depends of their WRC campaign probably. If they quit WRC, might compete in ERC with factory team. I don't think they'll do both.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSon
Probably selling the cars with some technical support, as the news says it will be not a works team.
M-Sport plant für die EM*:: rallye-magazin.de
If they have capable driver like Basso they can win the series. Let's see :)
Unfortunate news about Ford, but fortunately they committed to the R5 which will come out in march!
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This is a golden opportunity for the FIA. Make R5 the top class in WRC from 2014!
Ford (weird...), Citroen, Skoda, Subaru, Renault (?)....
This might have been the plan from FIA for some time, and they have probably told the manufacturers some time ago. It has been mentioned on the forum some time ago, i will try to find out where.Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
would imo be perfect for teams and drivers from a money perspective, and might give more people the option to win with the same car in national series, in regional and world series !
I remember seeing that idea floating about on this forum but the argument against it was that if R5 were to become the top class in rallying it would only drive up the cost of R5 cars.
If Citroen, VW etc then had to make cars capable of winning the WRC to R5 regs then either a) those particular cars would be more advanced (within the limits of the regulations) than the cars made by Skoda, Peugeot and M-Sport etc. and there would be no level playing field or b) to compete against Citroen and VW on a regional level the Skoda, Peugeot and Ford would have to be as advanced and therefore as expensive.
Plus the FIA would have to tell Citroen, VW, Hyundai and any other manufacturer that may or may not join the WRC in the near future that their S2000-based WRC cars are now obsolete. Not such an issue for Citroen as they're making an R5 car too but not worth it.
I think the idea makes sense, it's just not practical to put it into action.
There were discussions about prices in the ”R-Classes news” thread and I thought I continue here.
Looking at this Rally Star - For all the latest motorsport news as well as motorsport events - 2004 HOMOLOGATION REGULATIONS FOR SUPER 2000 KIT-VARIANT (RALLIES) old draft (Word) for S2000 homologation regulations the original intention was indeed to have a 150 000 € price for a complete car.
7.13 (page 11)
“The maximum price of a car that is ready to race (i.e. as presented at the start for rallies on asphalt) must not exceed 150.000 Euros (before taxes).”
Now the kit is 168.000 € (or is it anymore?).
See also article 3, production criteria for homologation.
The minimum production is:
- 1 completely assembled vehicle.
- 9 sets of all the parts relating to the engine and the shell/bodywork, for changing the Group N model considered into the completely assembled vehicle mentioned above.
- 1 set of all the transmission parts for changing from two-wheel drive to four-wheel drive, to modify the Group N model considered into the completely assembled vehicle mentioned above.
- 1 set of all the rear suspension parts for changing the Group N model considered into the completely assembled car mentioned above.
This could be the new Fabia to work on the R5 2013 model
Attachment 3035
The attachment doesn't work.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Attachment 3036
Aha, that picture from Autobild.de :) I think it will look quite similar, yes.
Mirek, have Skoda plans for 2013 in the Czech national championship or taking a year off until R5 time in 2014?
I have no idea but I think it's still not decided in the moment.
What would be a reasonable price for a R5 car? I wish the price would begin with a 1.
If the rebuild interval for the engine will be 3000 km vs. 1500 km for a Fiesta S2000 with same rebuild costs, the running cost for the engine would be the half for a S2000.
Ford Fiesta S2000 (Ford Fiesta S2000 Sales Document)
Rebuild interval 1500 km
Price £12 940 ~ 16 118 € => 10,75 € / km (Parts £8,740 ~ 10 886 €, Labour £4,200 ~ 5 231 €)
Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 21 500 € / year
R5 (S2000 rebuilding cost)
Rebuild interval 3000 km
Price £12 940 ~ 16 118 € => 5,37 € / km (Parts £8,740 ~ 10 886 €, Labour £4,200 ~ 5 231,45)
Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 10 740 € / year
Btw, the running cost for the Fiesta RRC engine is almost twice compared to the S2000.
Rebuild interval 1600 km
Price £29 976,98 ~ 37 141 € => 23,23 € / km
Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 46 460 € / year
There is of course also other running cost but about them I don’t know anything.
As I already mentioned I bet the price of R5 car will be cca same like with S2000 car - that is around 250 thousand Euro for complete car. About the engine rebuild cycles I heard it may well be 5000 km.
They say (Peugeot probably) 3K - 5K km I think
Yes, they are aiming for durability between 3000 and 5000 km but I took a safe approach and used 3000 km.
Peugeot Sport - RALLYE - news-1022-la-208-type-r5-se-devoile-au-mondial-de-paris-29-09-14-10-
We have serious foundations with this engine as it is the same as that of the RCZ Racing Cup which currently develops 260 horsepower in its endurance version. We are also aiming for a very high level of durability and reliability: with between 3000 and 5000 kilometres (according to the components and conditions), which will also reduce the operating costs."
That’s I’m afraid about that it will be lot more expensive than the 180 000 € price cap suggested by FIA. But, if the manufacturers try to keep the cost level of a R3 / R3T car, the R5 could be more affordable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Most of the parts of a S2000 car is lot more expensive compared to an equivalent part for a R3 or R3T. Couple of examples:
Front wishbones
Peugeot S2000 5259 € Average 2,83 times more expensive
Citroen R3T 1326 €
Renault Clio R3 1985 €
Skoda Fabia R2 2265 €
Front drive shafts
Peugeot S2000 3738 € Average 3,85 times more expensive
Citroen R3T 881 €
Renault Clio R3 863 €
Skoda Fabia R2 1167 €
I don’t what could justify this huge price difference because looking at the pics below, imo the front wishbones all having similar designs. Those one who knows, please explain.
One thing that could affect the difference is that a manufacturer can’t predict how many S2000 cars (or any else class/group) would be sold and then spreading the development & manufacturing costs of parts of some kind of forecast.
Peugeot S2000
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...ntwishbone.jpg
Renault Clio R3
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...xiwishbone.jpg
Skoda Fabia R2
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...R2wishbone.jpg
@ OldF: 180 000 euros is the kit price, that all manufacturers will have. But if you want a ready-to-drive car from the factory, where everything is built, it should cost around 250 000 euros.
Also comparing wishbones, driveshafts etc isn't representative. To begin with, a S2000 is built to have more stress on those parts, they're stronger than parts in R3 and R2 (proof could be the number of retirements you have with Fiesta R2's in the academy).
OK, I don’t know if the suggested price cap of 180 000 € is for a complete car or just the kit. You probably know more. It’s a complete mess from FIA not to define if the suggested price cap is for a kit or a complete car.
The difference of a complete car vs. the kit (250 000 vs. 180 000 = 70 000) would still be huge. Looking at the video (Building the new rally car... | Peugeot 207 S2000 Evo 2012 | Synthos Cersanit Rally Team - YouTube & Rajd Mille Miglia - nowa rajdówka ju? gotowa!) of assembling the Peugeot S2000 for Solowow, it took 5 days for 5 mechanics to assemble the car. Additionally there was two days of painting. Lets say that if 5 guys were working 10 hours a day for seven days, it would mean total of 350 hours. Divided 70 000 € with 350 hours give a price of 200 € / hour.
Of course there are also some hidden costs like homologation papers, some training of mechanics etc.
Yes, you’re right about the stress but considering the drive shafts I have to disagree. A S2000 has about 250 Nm of torque from the engine and that torque is divided on four wheels. A Citroen DS3 R3T has a torque of 350 Nm with 98-octane fuel divided on only two wheels.
I don’t think a comparison with the Fiesta R2 is essential because the Fiesta R2 is a very basic R2 car. It has homologated drive shafts but not any wishbones. It could be compared to the Citroen C2 R2 base or Renault Twingo R2 base (kit prices for Citroen and Ford is/was about 23 000 € and the Twingo was about 28 000€). That’s why the Fiesta R2 has been the Academy car last year and will be the next year in JWRC.
PS Thanks for the hint for videos of the French gravel championship rallies. Lot of videos there but I’m still searching to find videos of the gravel championship.7
a 2wd car with 350nm will stress less the shafts than a 4wd car with 250nm.Most of shaft stress is at low speed,and with steering away from center line,most stress when one wheel is on air(something usual at u turns with different height between left-right wheel at any axle)Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
At these circumstances a 2wd is easy to broke the grip and spin,a 4wd is not so easy to broke the grip,and there comes the big stress.
Of course we have to mention that all shafts are not the same.Other are stronger and other are weaker.
For example at n4 evos shafts can cope(with sensible driver..) with 600nm torque(change once a year),and we are talking about oem ones.