Good luck to Heidfeld!
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Good luck to Heidfeld!
Heidfeld deserves his chance, hope he gets the drive.
I am interested to know what will happen if Heidfeld is in contention for the WDC when Kubica has fully recovered from his injury, assuming he fully recovers well before the end of the season. It would be completely foolish to drop Heidfeld in such a situation, but if Petrov underperforms, and Renault have a sniff of the WCC, it will be interesting to see how they play their cards.
Good drive of Quick Nick, I think he has the seat now..
Hopefully he will keep the same sharpness in future.. the car looks fast :)
Pardon my ignorance, but are these laws you are referring to based on something mandated buy the EU. In the USA It is common practice to have heavily incentive laden contracts, including how many games a player competes in, even if the player is unable to compete because of an injury that happens, or is exacerbated while playing the sport he is contracted to play. Although most of the incentive are for achieving levels of production, and success, it is not uncommon for a player, especially older ones in Base Ball and more specifically Pitchers that have had arm problems in the past, and also ones that have a history of being injury prone to have a relatively low base salary, at the same time if they excel, and are healthey enough to produce, and paricipate in an amount that is consistant with how often their particular position normally does are rewarded quite handsomely . I realize comparing F1 drivers to stick, and ball professionals is a awkward endeavor, but I would think that since both have contracts negotiated by agents they (at least in the US) can be quite creative, and it's not like the base pay is very low. It is just that the incentive clauses can be quite rewarding. At any rate here is a scenario I would think is legal under contractual agreements in F1, but please correct me if I am wrong. Let's say that RK has a base salary. In his contract he has a certain amount of incentive clause money for every race he finishes in the points. That is the first incentive theshold, next another for finishing no lower than p6. Another larger incentive is earned for each podium, more for race wins, and incentives that would be akin to winning an enormous lottery if he were to win the wdc. These types of clauses are quite common in the states (can't say about Racing contracts) and are usually extremely incentive laden in the contracts of athletes that are near the end of their career. If RK had an incentive laden contract than he would still get paid but he just wouldn't get the money that was contingent on where he finished the race. The base pay should be substantial, as a driver is really not responsible for how competitive the car is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
At any rate here is what "Ole' One Ear" has to say about it FWIW
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/140220...ims-lauda.html
Quote:
It makes no sense for him to put his job and his life at risk like this. Was it unreasonable? Of course it was," Lauda, who was given the last rites following his serious Nurburgring accident in 1976, told SpeedTV, "He has to ensure that he can do his job, and his job is F1. Only he is to blame for what happened to him. Did he have to be doing this? No!"
Only if you are effectively an independent contractor, but F1 drivers are not. They are employed by the team just like any other employee, and so are subject to UK/EU employment law as a result.
I think the problem part that BDunnell was probably referring to would beQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz
(my emphasis)Quote:
Originally Posted by foxystoat
There wouldn't be a problem paying F1 drivers on a piecework or success-bonus basis (subject to minimum wage laws); in fact most do have large success bonuses as part of their remuneration. But saying that if you're absent, you might or might not get paid depending on the cause of that absence - that could be an unfair contractual term.
If, for example, I was unable to work due to a skiing injury, and my employer refused to pay contractual sick-pay on the basis that I could have chosen not take that risk, their chances of getting away with it would be slim.
Would the same principle apply to F1 drivers? After all, those employed in the UK are covered by the same laws as I am. Well... it's not necessarily that simple. In deciding whether contractual terms are unfair, UK courts will consider the process of negotiating the contract. For most of us there's little opportunity to negotiate the details of our employment contracts - if you want the job you sign the contract. Courts are quite willing to strike out unfair terms in that situation. But an F1 driver's contract, negotiated by the driver's agent, is a much more equal agreement. A term such as the one foxystoat suggested could stand in that situation, as a court might rule that both parties had agreed to it freely.
Andy thanks for your input and I like the simplicity of Mark's answer as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by AndyL
Just for the record the part of your post that I believe misrepresents what I had suggested I have emboldened in the text of yours I quoted. My suggestion in no way says that RK would not be paid for missing a race as his contract would pay him handsomely for being a diver for the whole season. What I was suggesting was that he merely not receive the extra incentive clause money because whether he raced or not, he did not achieve any of the thesholds for incentive (extra) pay for that race. I just wanted to make that clear, and I'm not sure that you didn't understand it. It may be you were simply addressing Ben’s posture on a different, and much more harsh penalty for not participating.
Cheers
I guess one of the points I was trying to make was that when BDunnell mentioned employment law, I don't think he was talking about the general idea of performance-based pay - but the specific idea that was mentioned in the post he was replying to (foxystoat's post). That was what I was referring to in the bit of my reply that you highlighted. Apologies for any misunderstanding. I quoted too much of your post, it probably would have been clearer if I'd only quoted the first sentence. I was more trying to expand on what BDunnell had referred to, rather than the examples that you had given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz
i don't see where they have named Nick yet - what is the hold up
Maybe JV has been too busy to speak to them .Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
They were waiting for Kimi to finish Rally Sweden. They might still try and get him!Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
here fishy fishy fishyQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
one would hope this is fishing given that as an F1 driver JV has shown himself to be a spent force; and w/ Schumacher taking so long to come up to speed how can JV be expected to achieve even points scoring finishes. At least for renault Heidfeld would be a known quantity and having worked w/ RK at BMW-Sauber i'm sure he could quickly adapt to a car built to suit RK's driving style
Rubens B posted this on his twitter today..
rubarrichello "guess from who I received a call today??Robert Kubica...tks GOD he is ok ,talking normally...I was so happy... "
well for all you jv haters he had a fairly brilliant weekend - finishing first in a heat race and second in the main race beating such drivers as Alain Prost. F1 with the ban on testing has seeked to control who drives. I assume Nick will get the nod but for you who don't think JV can drive you simply have your head firmly up your ass
couple things - the fact is he can drive extremely well. I assume he will probably make it to nascar and do very well. However the point is simple - If MS can still make it in F1 I am confident JV could as well. But with that being said he won't get the opportunity which is a bit of a shame if he could muster a good test result. But now that can't even happen in F1 because of testing rules. It is a known fact that JV didn't kiss the mop's ass or moseley's ass with probably has hurt him in a attempt for a return. As far as being on a different page than you - yes I am because I believe all F1 teams should be able to test whoever they want whenever they want.
I'll quote Boullier again.
It won't be anyone else, not JV, not Kimi.Quote:
Once you have ticked all the boxes there are no more than three drivers in the paddock - Nick Heidfeld, Vitantonio Liuzzi and Pedro de la Rosa.
May I add that JV entered the series , having never raced on ice , a couple of months ago , and has won against all the regulars with far more experience ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
The regs having changed , in the opinion of Jock Clear , suit JV even more than when he was driving .Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
And the tires are something "vastly different" that everyone must get used to dealing with .
His spell away from F1 has been filled with many racing categories , all of which had him impressing greatly , those who are regulars to the series' .
What is it about the initials JV and F1 :confused:
It used to be that there were those who insisted that Jos Verstappen would soon be back in F1, and when the prediction never materialised there would always be another return right around the corner if we'd all just wait.
Now, there's another JV who, were are told, could be back this time.
It didn't happen for Jos and I can't see it happening for Jacques.
If won't happen so it's quite irrelevant for the topic. Maybe a new one for discussing potential/wanted F1 returns in general would be better and less confusing.
Yet again I have to correct you on this point: Jock said that Jacques "would enjoy" driving the current cars, that was all. I'd enjoy playing at Wembley, doesn't mean I'd be any good at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
"Would enjoy" implies that he didn't enjoy the cars when he was driving .
That he "would enjoy" the new formula , implies that he would do better , Dave .
Maybe you'd be better suited to Wembley than journalism if you couldn't work that out .
But , as with Jacques , who would know if you never got the chance ?
Maybe you should read the first post , where I mentioned Jacques , before you post he is irrelevent .Quote:
Originally Posted by maxter
And , maybe you should know that Pino chose the title for this thread as well .
I hope you are now less confused .
I just don't see how it's relevant to discuss JV (or Raikkonen for that matter) when Boullier has stated quite clearly that it will be Heidfeld, Liuzzi or Fisichella. But whatever, it will be announced soon enough so it's not a big deal. Maybe afterwards it can be renamed and continue discussions about speculations and wishes in general.
I'm not aware of the original title of the topic so my posts here are based on the current one, I hope that's okay.
Jock said nothing of the sort, you're making a leap of faith and putting words in Jock's mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
How did his last comeback go? P11, P10, P10, wasn't it? Renault would be crazy to want him back. He had his chance - he had serveral chances. He was mediocre when he quit the first time, hopeless when he quit the second time, and hasn't been in F1 for four years.Quote:
But , as with Jacques , who would know if you never got the chance ?
Let it go.
The problem is that none of the current crop of team managers know who JV is. I mean, it's not as if he's well known and gagging to return to F1.
Or perhaps they think he's not worth it ;)
I just read the following:
our source claims that Kubica has said he would prefer to be replaced by Force India F1 refugee Vitantonio Liuzzi, whom he considers to be a better racer out of the pair. The 26-year-old is friends with both.
I can't understand his logic on this one. I think it might be going back to his BMW rant about Nick costing him the title in 2008.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
Or; RK has spent a large portion of his adult life in Italy, and is bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
And/or; Rk was heavily medicated at the time of this statement :)
I read it one of two ways , and either could be correct .
He's a guy talking about his replacement , and he wants that guy to genuinely be fast , and carry the team forward .
He seems well liked in the paddock , so that may well be the case . That being that he isn't afraid of anyone anyway .
Or , it might be easy to think he's a guy who's suggesting a team-mate least likely to succeed in carrying the team forward .
Vitaly is the one who said that Robert was not much of a mentor , and that suggests that he's one man in casual dress , and quite another in his racing suit .
And given is that he is crazy enough to risk his drive this close to the season , shows he is driven enough to be crazy enough to win it all .
That kind of ego would never put the best man for the job in the seat .
A large part of the enjoyment during his recovery would be to see that Vitaly now has a little of his mentoring , so that he beats his new team-mate . We've seen Robert beat Vitaly comprehensively , so , from that , we can extrapolate that Robert is better than anyone who replaces him , as long as his team-mate holds up well .
I don't know which it is , but it's one or the other .
I'm a fan of Liuzzi, but to say that he is better than Heidfeld is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
And Nick costing him the title in 2008? I don't remember anything about that. All I remember is Kubica complaining about the team, despite the fact that they gave him the Canada win when Nick had put himself in a winning position.
What I want to know is: say Heidfeld starts the season, but then before say, Australia, it emerges that Robert will return for Monaco. What then happens if Heidfeld wins three out of the first five races? Does Kubica replace Petrov, or does he not get his seat back at all?
I know he's pretty unlikely to return by then, if at all this year, but it would be interesting to see how Renault handle that dilemma if it occurs.
what happens if they pass out free crack at all 5 races. Maybe we will all think Heidfield won.Quote:
Originally Posted by woody2goody
Heidfeld confirmed, announcement imminent.
DoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave B
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89513
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
I think you can buy the team and then you can decide :) If you put a tenner on an accumulator of Kubica to be fit before Monaco, and Heidfeld to win 3 out of 5 races, you'll be able to afford it!Quote:
Originally Posted by woody2goody
At least we can stop mentioning JV or any other has beens now , unless he is going to get the 2nd HRT seat ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz
Last big chance for Nick. 33 years old and (admittedly via less than ideal means) he finds himself in, what appears to be, a top, top car.
Best of luck to the weirdy beardy.
I'll just go ahead and quote this as I feel the exact same way. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88