Renault get a 2 year suspended ban

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I think we can now say that Renault's decision not to defend themselves against the allegations was an admission of guilt. There was never likely to be a series of documents, let's face it, given that it all happened during a race. And the telemetry is pretty conclusive too.

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Telemetry proves Piquet can't drive for 5h!t....

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I was thinking Toro Rosso, but perhaps it was Force India (or whatever they were called at the time) who "obtained" drawings of a rivals car.

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I think it was STR, but I cannot recall who's drawings they had.......

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yes they did. That's why when the FIA checked the new car design in December 2007 they've found at least 3 systems copied from the F2007 and McLaren were asked to change those systems.

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No, the FIA said that if evidence of use of the three systems in question that Ferrari had been working on - fast fill, quick shift and something else I cannot recall, they would face further sanctions.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

No buts..... you're not meant to have your competitors documents and you should be penalised for it.

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Agreed. Thank you!

I have never said that McLaren shouldn't be punished. They deserved to be and were.

I just question why weren't Renault and by your post, I assume you are asking the same question.

Then we have this incident which the Max and the FIA has said is worse than the Spygate and Renault still don't get punished.

It seems that if the FIA decide you are pivortal to FI, ie Renault and Ferrari, then the rules and punishment is different from other competitors.

PS Can we remember the Forum Protocol thread?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I think it was STR, but I cannot recall who's drawings they had.......

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No buts about it, it was Spyker who obtained Red Bull drawings (link). The FIA weren't interested in that one.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

No buts about it, it was Spyker who obtained Red Bull drawings (link).

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Good find Watson!

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

I have never seen a bunch of people that hate the people of f1 as so many here: Max, Bernie, Flavio you name them - very sad.

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Max is someone who, in his younger days, was a supporter of his father's fascist movement, and more recently has been fundamentally bad at his job, leaving aside the comments it is easy to make about him continuing to demonstrate some of the tendencies of his father. Flavio should have gone to prison. Are these people worthy of our admiration? Or should we automatically, unthinkingly, slavishly respect them because they have a lot of money?

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Agreed. Thank you!

I have never said that McLaren shouldn't be punished. They deserved to be and were.

I just question why weren't Renault and by your post, I assume you are asking the same question.

Then we have this incident which the Max and the FIA has said is worse than the Spygate and Renault still don't get punished.

It seems that if the FIA decide you are pivortal to FI, ie Renault and Ferrari, then the rules and punishment is different from other competitors.

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Indeed, but it also appears that the press are really getting their teeth into the Renault Fixing case.

Headlines like 'Anger at Renault leniancy' and questions of the closeness of the regulator to the promoter - i.e. Bernie and CVC could not afford for Renault to leave because;

Red Bull lose an engine supplier and Renault would be out,

Rules would need to be change to allow manufacturers to supply more engines.

If the press start baying for Max's blood, when he no longer has the protection of the FIA on his side, he will be crucified. And this is why I think having Todt as his replacement will not be allowed to happen, because he will be Max's puppet.

WIth Max out, it's fair game and you can bet there will be more grime dug up from his past. ANd I suspect this is why he pursued the privacy thing, because, on the face of it, it appears he has much murkier past than just bondage and fancy dress.

I agree with much of that Wilko but don't think JT will be Max's puppet but rather would continue in the same vein as they share a vision.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I agree with much of that Wilko but don't think JT will be Max's puppet but rather would continue in the same vein as they share a vision.

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The way I see it - so it is ONLY MY OPINION - Ferrari had all the favours from the FIA when Todt was at the helm of the Scuderia, and Max at the FIA.

In order to protect other team bosses outing whatever lies and scandal from Max's closet, he needs someone to carry on 'the good work'.

As much I admire Todt for getting things done, he is so totally wrong for the head of the FIA because of his associations and past connections with current teams in FIA governed sports.

Remembering here that Ari was only a driver - I think.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

But had the race-fixing not occurred, there would have been no way for Max to get rid of Flavio...

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Isn't that the issue where Max is concerned though? The suggestion has been that certain circumstances, which are not unique in the history of F1, have been exploited to a particular end whereas others have not been put under the same level of scrutiny.

While the departure from F1 of the likes of Ron Dennis and Flavio Briatore may have been welcomed in some quarters, it is not the role of the FIA to target individuals who may have got up the nose of the FIA President.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Agreed. Thank you!

I have never said that McLaren shouldn't be punished. They deserved to be and were.

I just question why weren't Renault and by your post, I assume you are asking the same question.

Then we have this incident which the Max and the FIA has said is worse than the Spygate and Renault still don't get punished.

It seems that if the FIA decide you are pivortal to FI, ie Renault and Ferrari, then the rules and punishment is different from other competitors.

PS Can we remember the Forum Protocol thread?

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Well tbh I don't remember the renault spygate details at all. Feel free to refresh my memory and I will probably agree with you that it's a bit strange.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

WIth Max out, it's fair game and you can bet there will be more grime dug up from his past. ANd I suspect this is why he pursued the privacy thing, because, on the face of it, it appears he has much murkier past than just bondage and fancy dress.

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Well, all the stuff about his dubious political associations in his younger days — he was very enthusiastic about his father's politics — is quite well known, though rarely mentioned by the press, it must be said.

I read recently that Max was at some dinner with a load of motorsport journalists who presented him with a riding whip, which he apparently found most amusing. 'What a good sport', you might think. I suspect that he would have been less amused had he been given a copy of 'Hitler's Death Camps', or some such. This despite the fact that his dad may well be mentioned in the index.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Isn't that the issue where Max is concerned though? The suggestion has been that certain circumstances, which are not unique in the history of F1, have been exploited to a particular end whereas others have not been put under the same level of scrutiny.

While the departure from F1 of the likes of Ron Dennis and Flavio Briatore may have been welcomed in some quarters, it is not the role of the FIA to target individuals who may have got up the nose of the FIA President.

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I agree with all of that, but, like I said, the outcomes in the Renault case — which is, as far as we know, unique — would not have been altered.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Max is someone who, in his younger days, was a supporter of his father's fascist movement, and more recently has been fundamentally bad at his job, leaving aside the comments it is easy to make about him continuing to demonstrate some of the tendencies of his father. Flavio should have gone to prison. Are these people worthy of our admiration? Or should we automatically, unthinkingly, slavishly respect them because they have a lot of money?

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Humans are not angels and maybe they shouldn't be. I respect Flavio tremendously, because he was one of the people who made MS and Fred champions, because he was shrewd, talented organizer and - yes - ruthless team boss who chased the victory always on the edge. He crossed the edge and he fell. But I continue to respect him.
About Max, he is really authoritarian, rude schemer, but he made a lot about F1 safety and in the end he was right about many things, including the fact that the manufacturers do not care about F1 and costs need to go down. I hate his attitude, but he is not all black either.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Humans are not angels and maybe they shouldn't be. I respect Flavio tremendously, because he was one of the people who made MS and Fred champions, because he was shrewd, talented organizer and - yes - ruthless team boss who chased the victory always on the edge. He crossed the edge and he fell. But I continue to respect him.
About Max, he is really authoritarian, rude schemer, but he made a lot about F1 safety and in the end he was right about many things, including the fact that the manufacturers do not care about F1 and costs need to go down. I hate his attitude, but he is not all black either.

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I agree that these people are not all bad, but I prefer to concentrate on personal qualities when it comes to respecting such people, and there is just too much about these individuals that I dislike. In relation to Briatore, how many other people do you respect who, I repeat, were sentenced to jail at one point?

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Humans are not angels and maybe they shouldn't be. I respect Flavio tremendously, because he was one of the people who made MS and Fred champions, because he was shrewd, talented organizer and - yes - ruthless team boss who chased the victory always on the edge. He crossed the edge and he fell. But I continue to respect him.
About Max, he is really authoritarian, rude schemer, but he made a lot about F1 safety and in the end he was right about many things, including the fact that the manufacturers do not care about F1 and costs need to go down. I hate his attitude, but he is not all black either.

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I actually agree. I mean look at Hitler! Fantastic bloke, turned Germany into a powerhouse of industry, fathered the autobahns, German motorsport gained a lot in his time and loads of other things. I find it sad that people focus on the side of Hitler that was all for slaughtering jews, gays, slavs etc.

And yes I am being sarcastic......

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree that these people are not all bad, but I prefer to concentrate on personal qualities when it comes to respecting such people, and there is just too much about these individuals that I dislike. In relation to Briatore, how many other people do you respect who, I repeat, were sentenced to jail at one point?

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Mandela went to jail. Perhaps it would be better if we looked at the conviction, rather than the jail bit....?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

And yes I am being sarcastic......

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So glad you cleared that up! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Well tbh I don't remember the renault spygate details at all. Feel free to refresh my memory and I will probably agree with you that it's a bit strange.

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Phil Macereth left McLaren for Renault in 2006 with the plans and documentation for suspension, fuel system, mass damper and gearing.

These were then used within Renault and came to light when a quite junour ex-Renault employee joined McLaren about a year later and admitted to knowing all about the McLaren data. Phil himself when joining Renault went to work in their Fuel department where he had absolutly no knowledge apart from what he stole.

Phil admitted sharing the information with key engineering staff but they all stated that the design of their car was not influenced by the stolen data.

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

Result. $100m fine..... Sorry, wrong team. No penalty. I think Phil still works ther.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Phil Macereth left McLaren for Renault in 2006 with the plans and documentation for suspension, fuel system, mass damper and gearing.

These were then used within Renault and came to light when a quite junour ex-Renault employee joined McLaren about a year later and admitted to knowing all about the McLaren data. Phil himself when joining Renault went to work in their Fuel department where he had absolutly no knowledge apart from what he stole.

Phil admitted sharing the information with key engineering staff but they all stated that the design of their car was not influenced by the stolen data.

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

Result. $100m fine..... Sorry, wrong team. No penalty. I think Phil still works ther.

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If those be the facts then it does seem a bit stoopid.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

So glad you cleared that up! :laugh:

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Well there are strange people on this forum with strange beliefs so I think it pays to be explicit with what you're saying etc etc :p

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Phil Macereth left McLaren for Renault in 2006 with the plans and documentation for suspension, fuel system, mass damper and gearing.

These were then used within Renault and came to light when a quite junour ex-Renault employee joined McLaren about a year later and admitted to knowing all about the McLaren data. Phil himself when joining Renault went to work in their Fuel department where he had absolutly no knowledge apart from what he stole.

Phil admitted sharing the information with key engineering staff but they all stated that the design of their car was not influenced by the stolen data.

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

Result. $100m fine..... Sorry, wrong team. No penalty. I think Phil still works ther.

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Perhaps the team chose to exercise 'option 13' to escape punishment - again..... ;)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If those be the facts then it does seem a bit stoopid.

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Dems da facts alright....

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree that these people are not all bad, but I prefer to concentrate on personal qualities when it comes to respecting such people, and there is just too much about these individuals that I dislike. In relation to Briatore, how many other people do you respect who, I repeat, were sentenced to jail at one point?

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I am not sure, I respect many people, writers, actors, musicians, sportsmen, even some politicians and I do not follow closely their whole career. But I don't think that this matter. I said why I respect Flav. His time in jail in no way diminished my respect to him.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Mandela went to jail. Perhaps it would be better if we looked at the conviction, rather than the jail bit....?

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Fair point, though everything one reads about Briatore's background indicates that he wasn't the victim of a great miscarriage of justice.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Fair point, though everything one reads about Briatore's background indicates that he wasn't the victim of a great miscarriage of justice.

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Yeah but Flab wasn't part of a terrorist organisation :)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

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What, Whitebait found the Renault factory on his own......?

.......without help?


......are you sure?

;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

What, Whitebait found the Renault factory on his own......?

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Assuming it was the Renault factory he ended up in? :crazy: :p

http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2391

This article explains the reason for the jail sentence, among other little gems....

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'm struggling to see your point :confused:

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And I'm struggling to understand your trolling. :mad:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Isn't that the issue where Max is concerned though? The suggestion has been that certain circumstances, which are not unique in the history of F1, have been exploited to a particular end whereas others have not been put under the same level of scrutiny.

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The way laws are applied changes over time pretty much everywhere in the world. It's called evolution.

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Originally Posted by ioan

And I'm struggling to understand your trolling. :mad:

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That discussion was all cleared up.. Keep up please

How can someone be trolling when they are in the discussion?? :confused:

It seems you were trolling by going back 2 hours looking for this comment..

Notice how I didn't use your catch phrase "But I wasn't talking to you"...

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/152553/..._from_fia.html
i am a cheat but if you call me a cheat i will sue you

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Disgraced former Renault F1 managing director Flavio Briatore is understood to be 'distraught' at the effective lifetime ban he has received from working in Formula 1 following yesterday's FIA World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) hearing in Paris – so much so that he is reported to be considering seeking compensation from the governing body for damage to his reputation.

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Originally Posted by ioan

The way laws are applied changes over time pretty much everywhere in the world. It's called evolution.

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Not always. Sometimes it could be described as deep inconsistency.

What lap am I on?

Sometimes, your sponsor decals can come back to haunt you.....

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Originally Posted by henners88

That discussion was all cleared up.. Keep up please

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Who cares? This an open forum so I just felt I'll share my view over your trolling.

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/152553/..._from_fia.html
i am a cheat but if you call me a cheat i will sue you

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:laugh:

He won't do anything. He's just making some waves right now, as he is fully aware that after being thrown out by Renault, who never tried to contest the cheating allegations, he will also be laughed at and thrown out of the court room.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Who cares? This an open forum so I just felt I'll share my view over your trolling.

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Now you're nicking my lines :p
Now you've shared your views on my apparent trolling, what are you going to do about your trolling?