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Sure - and the car number is not that big thing - but it was unnecessary and not that clever when thinking that they did it against one of the best driver on the greed and when they same time gave him a 2 years contract with a huge salary. That’s difficult to understand what they were thinking.. if they ware were thinking..Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
:)
Meh? Mentally weak? If Massa was mentally weak, he would have collapsed after the two opening races in 2008, after which everyone was calling for his head. But Massa kept his cool, learned from his mistakes and started driving better than ever before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Jens, the only thing weak around here is that stuff Saint Devote keeps serving up. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jens
With Massa, we can be certain that this chap is giving it his utmost in every corner on every lap in every session he's on the track. And the ONLY other driver I can say that about besides Felipe is Lewis Hamilton. Which is not to say I think the other drivers aren't trying hard, because I believe Glock, Webber, Kubica, Rubens, and Vettel are hanging it out 99% of the time, too.
I can't say the same for Kimi, howsoever talented he is.
It would be much better for Kimi to leave Ferrari, he doesn't have the nessary support within the team, and he cant play the team politics. He just doesn't fit into Ferrari. Going to Brawn will be a very interesting option, especially working with Ross Brawn. Mclaren would also be another good option, and the engineers at Mclaren still has a lot of respect for him. With all the rule changes next year it might be better to be driving a Mercedes engine, Ferrari's fuel consumption seems to be too high. Something is definitly going on, either Mclaren are courting Kimi or a deal has already been signed.
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/s...konenmonza.jpg
http://www.hoch-zwei.net/archive/p_7...9109171414.jpg
I can see Kimi returning in McLaren Mercedes, but I am not sure that he will fit in Brawn GP. Kimi is a bit if a rebel and Brawn demands supreme discipline... Still I hope that he will stay at Ferrari. Check this article:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/0...rari-marriage/
But maybe it will be good for Kimi if he stays in Ferrari for another year...
Keke Rosberg says Fernando will drive for Ferrari next year while Auto Motor und Sport reports that Kimi will go to Mclaren. These are interesting times.
http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutise...2009/09/957869
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...s-1413359.html
f1-live.com and The Mirror newspaper (a tabloid though) in England are reporting that Kimi has signed an outline agreement to return to McLaren next year:
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...20103457.shtml
Kimi to Mclaren will be great....but i want Rosberg in Mclaren too....I have a gut feel that Rosberg will be heading to Brawn if Kimi goes to Mclaren...maybe Mercedes = German Driver :?:
These stories do not make sense.
Raikkonen to Mclaren I can understand because it is a move from one top team to another, despite the team essentially setup in Hamilton's favor, but Ron Dennis is no longer there. Whitmarsh may well ensure that there is equality - but who gets a new part when one is only available such as this year?
But why would Ferrari get rid of the Finn and retain Massa, paying out millions? It makes more sense to retain Raikkonen alongside Alonso.
The victory at Spa was a peformance was Kimi all the way.
Then, why would Brawn and Mercedes favor Rosberg over Barrichello - Nico has not done anything to demonstrate he is a topline driver. He may have beaten "Kaz" on most occassions this season but Nakajima is hardly a significant benchmark.
Why is Rosberg thought of as such a must have driver - just because he is German and Mercedes may desire that?
Ferrari should rather keep Raikkonen, Mercedes should sign with williams and keep Rosberg together with Hulkenberg for 2010.
Or as they will be powered with Mercedes, Mclaren ought to try sign Hulkenberg although he must be ready mentally because having Lewis as temmate at Mclaren is the toughest assignment in racing today - it is a reputation destroyer.
Kimi's performance does not warrant a seat at Ferrari when the Italian team have a choice of him, Alonso or Massa. His performance has fluctuated considerably when it was expected that he'd slot in where Michael left off and be the lead Ferrari driver. It isn't a coincidence that Massa was the lead Ferrari driver last year and continued to be so this year until his accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Factor in his astonishingly high salary and no wonder Kimi doesn't look particularly attractive for Ferrari.
Massa is also on a very low salary for someone in his position, having been snapped up by Ferrari when he really didn't look very good and was on his way out of F1.
Another thing, Massa is far more popular within the team than Kimi, he speaks Italian and wasn't forced upon the team unlike Kimi who was chosen by Luca De Montezemolo against the team seniors' wishes.
The only fly in the ointment is Massa's injury, will he be quite as quick when he comes back compared to before?
Depends on one's point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
As far as I'm concerned is exactly what I was expecting to happen since last season already.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
How does it make sense to you that Ferrari pay tens of millions of euros for nothing and get rid of a driver like Raikkonen but retain Massa - with the added uncertainty whether he is able to race properly again?
Then when there is a driver like Hulkenberg around why would Mercedes want to place Rosberg in a Brawn or Mclaren for example? Rather provide angines for Williams and stow Hulkenberg in a Mclaren alongside Lewis and Kubica to Brawn.
If the current believed permutations go ahead then the silly season will indeed have earned its name.
Precisely. The only surprise for me is that Kimi was retained on such a lucrative salary last year. That was what didn't make sense, not that he is being kicked out. I guess Alonso's availability made all the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Because Kimi has been anything but consistent during the last 2 seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Because they will have Alonso on board in Kimi's place, which means a very consistent driver who you can rely on, exactly as Felipe.
Because even if Felipe won't be 100% as good as before, I hope he will be even better, Ferrari will have Alonso plus Felipe or any other young promising driver they will want to give a chance to.
Also why keep pis$ing money down the drain hoping that Kimi will stay awake for the next race?!
Since the point system change back in 2003 consistency is the key to win championships and that's why Alonso will be in a Ferrari. McLaren had him and failed to make it work I'm pretty sure that Ferrari will deal with him differently i.e. won't favor any of their drivers over the other, just like they did with Felipe and Kimi.
AFAIK Mercedes refused to supply Williams with engines so no Hulkenberg to Mercedes powered team possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Yeah, sure! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
What did Ron say after the 2007 Japanese GP?
Ah yeah, I remember now: "We were not racing against Kimi, we were racing against Alonso!"
This denotes no favoritism at all, if you're Ray Charles, otherwise it was there for everyone to see.
:wave:
Kimi was also very consistent before he went to Ferrari, so one never really knows what's going to happen with Alonso or any driver when he changes teams. But as I've written before, how do think Alonso will cope when he realises that the team likes Felipe more?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I always had the impression Luca, Jean and Michael all wanted Kimi to join Ferrari. So which seniors are you referring to? And could find any support for that claim?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
I suspect Jean Todt was the man who most wanted Räikkönen at Ferrari. That would make sense since the guy has a long history of working with Finnish drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzeidzei
Kimi Raikkonen delivered a world title to Ferrari and did so when if not for his self-confidence very few drivers would have done so - despite Mclaren doingtheir utmost NOT to win the title in 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Felipe Massa did not win a title and he constantly needs mental coaching from Smedley.
Raikkonen won at Spa, not because of Ferrari but because of Raikkonen.
Ferrari expected what Kimi delivered - a championship.
I doubt that they wanted another Schumacher otherwise they would not have hired Kimi. di Montezemolo knew what they were getting.
There is only ONE Schumacher and I doubt we will see another driver with the ability and drive it takes to achieve what he did at Ferrari.
Prior to his accident, Raikkonen's Monte Carlo podium beats Massa's Nurburgring podium.....!
Since Hungary Raikkonen is the driver that has scored the most points in the championship and won a race for Ferrari - yes indeed definitely a driver to be gotten rid of.
Raikkonen was paid as a champion - that always makes a difference.
No driver is "forced" upon a team by the CEO. He is the CEO and anyone that objects is welcome to leave and should they not perform their jobs according to their best ability they ought to be fired.
So what if Massa speaks Italian or is more popular - that is the absolute worst reason to favor Massa over a driver such as Raikkonen.
The "Italian team" is not THAT Italian anymore, it is cosmopolitan - in the decisive positions it was a German, an Englishman and a Frenchman that gave Ferrari its first title in TWENTY YEARS!!! And a Brazilian and Finnish driver today - get the picture?
And the carbon fiber - dratted American invention and is STILL manufactured in sunny North Carolina and the Ferrari tub was for sometime manufactured in England when John Barnard was there with Rory Byrne - Brit and a white South African.
I think that unless a third car is allowed or unless Ferrari really are prepared to pay Kimi his FULL 2010 retainer as he is demanding then the team will be Raikkonen and Alonso. The Spaniard is not going to hang around a dying Renault team when Ferrari beckons.
The Sucderia cannot take the chance on Massa, if they want to win in 2010.
Everything is negotiable prior to contracts being signed - Hulkenberg is a very valuable asset. We will see.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Kimi won the championship in 2007, since Hungary he has been on the podium every race and scored more points than anyone else including a win at Spa that was Kimi rather than the car.
Sure there was a "problem" in 2008 - that is not the past 2 seasons - but sometimes that is what happens and there was enough ink on the subject. It is not material and certainly was not as stated by Luca.
Alonso is not Raikkonen. Kimi does not care who the other driver is. Other than neccessary he has always hardly conferred with teammates ever.
Alonso is a different story. He MINDS who the other driver is and should Massa be his teammate, and be even partially comptitive, he will go out of his ruthless way to crush him in every way possible and we are all aware that Massa is very fragile in the confidence department.
On a driver such as Kimi it would have no effect - he is a man with high self-esteem and absolute self-confidence.
It is not inconceivable that Alonso will refuse to join Ferrari if Kimi is retained - it would be more than likely.
But the overriding question is how can Ferrari take a chance on a driver they have no way of knowing will be okay or not when he races again?
That may well be the reason behind Ferrari's push for a third car to be allowed. But as Williams is objecting, it is not probable that it wil happen.
I do not think that Ferrari will retain Massa as an active race driver in 2010 - they may as a test driver and as an option in 2011.
But then we have a possible objection to Raikkonen by Alonso - Ferrari have in my view quite a conundrum and we go in circles.
Definitely this whole saga is something that may only be decided on January 1 when testing once again allowed. Stupid regulation.
Thats exactly the point isn't it. According to your example Kimi this year has performed really well when his teammate was unconscious (Hungary) or slow (Badoer, Fisi getting up to speed). He hasn't outperformed Massa and certainly doesn't warrant his huge paypacket. 2007 was a long time ago I'm afraid, and whilst he may have supreme confidence etc etc he has been inconsistent in a way the likes of Alonso and Hamilton, even Massa simply are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
Your point about Massa's injury and Alonso's mindset are true, it will be interesting to see how those issues pan out, but Kimi is hardly the default choice simply based on his performance, and thats before we factor in things like his huge pay.
Than it's certainly bye bye Kimi, no matter if Felipe comes back or not, as I'm sure that Santander wants Alonso in the red cars next year even if everyone says nothing precise right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Devote
If you compare Massa and Räikkönen's points tally at Ferrari and exclude retirements for mechanical reasons, they've scored about the same number of points per finished race. So If Kimi is inconsistent, so is Massa. Edit: Obviously the Ferrari car has nothing do with this inconsistency the drivers have shown. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2009
I hope you included the 20009 results only up to the German GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Anyway can you, please, give us the number of points each of them scored in 2007, 2008 and 2009 (up to the German GP) excluding the car failure related retirements (not that it changes absolutely anything ;) )?
I'm really interested to see how they did each of these years and you already did the maths.
I often see people mention that Kimi was suppose to be the next Michael and he hasn't performed. Fair enough he hasn't performed. But with more and more news surfacing recently, you can easily start to see why Kimi hasn't performed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Things works both ways. If they really wanted Kimi to be more like Michael then they just should have made him the no.1 driver. You cant expect someone to deliver in a certain way, when you dont give him the tools to do so. Kimi did win the WDC in 2007 and many people tend to forget that Kimi was still leading the 2008 championship until more then halfway through the year.
You yourself mention the fact that Felipe was the leading driver last year and this year. But from a logical point of view it doesn't really make any sense to stop supporting your WDC, when he is actually leading the championship? Felipe did an excellent job and I can understand why they would have chosen Felipe to be the lead driver this year based on last year's performances. But it is just a strange move to suddenly stop supporting your WDC. As I have mentioned it is true that Kimi has under performed, but you also have to ask yourself what performances did you really expect from a driver that isn't really supported within the team? It is ironic that Kimi is now performing very well since the team have now started supporting him a bit more.
It seems like the Ferrari team have been dominated by politics these past two years, and Kimi certainly isn't good with politics. The problem for the most part is properly just that Kimi doesn't really fit into the team and Ferrari also dont really understand Kimi, thus they didn't give him the necessary support.
BTW Felipe is on a good salary, he gets 18 million a year that is about the same as Lewis.
Mclaren is in an interesting situation, all of the current WDC have driven for them, and they seem to be very interested in Kimi. In fact they have actually been courting Kimi more vehemently then Ferrari have been courting Alonso.
Many of the latest reports are now also stating that Kimi himself isn't really interested in driving for Ferrari next year. I can certainly understand why. I really hope Kimi goes to Mclaren next year. He will properly have a bit more support in Mclaren then at Ferrari, because the team already knows him. Even if he doesn't have as much support as Lewis, they at least both have the same type of driving style, so compromises in setup shouldn't be a problem. It will also be more difficult to use 2nd drivers next year as there is only low fuel qualifying and no re-fuelling during the races. The Ferrari management have also been quite error prone these past two years. Then there is also concerns about Ferrari's fuel economy, and the Ferrari engine might now be less powerful then the Mercedes engine. It really seems like a no brainer to me.
At least it seems like everyone will be happy with this deal, for Mclaren it is the return of the prodigal son. The Spanish and Italian press, as well as certain tifosisis finally have Alonso in Ferrari, teamed up against a fully recovered Felipe. While Mclaren have the dream team of Lewis and Kimi, going up against them! It could all be very interesting next year.
I don't understand why the minute Felipe started beating Kimi people supposed that it was only because all of a sudden Ferrari didn't support Kimi anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boudica
I'm yet to see a proof that Ferrari supported Felipe more than Kimi or that they decided not to support Kimi as they did in 2007.
To me it looked like Felipe started badly in 2008 but somehow he pulled himself together and started delivering the good at an impressive rate.
Kimi seemed to drop the ball around the same time and only really got it rolling again since Felipe was in comma in hospital.
These coincidences in Kimi's performance point, as far as I can see, towards Kimi losing the team mates battle for the first time and IMO this is what impacted his performance.
It wasn't Ferrari suddenly deciding not to care about a guy they pay € 50 million a year, it was slump in Kimi's performance due to him being in a strange situation that of being dominated by his team mate.
Why on Earth would have Ferrari decided not to support Kimi in 2008 when he started the season much better than Felipe?
Can you imagine Alonsita in a Ferrari?
I hope Kimi gets to stay.
Thanks for bringing this point up again. I remember that when Felipe spun off at the Malaysian GP of 2008 that people were writing him off for 3 races without any points. Monday morning after the race Stefano Domenicali made a statement saying that if Felipe wins the championship then everyone will forget the tribulations of the first 3 races. Felipe didn't take the title, but at least most "fans" have forgotten about the beginning portion of the year and remember his dominant streak of the latter half.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Yes, Jean was quite keen on Kimi. I remember in a podium ceremony in 2006, where Michael, Filipe and Kimi were on the podium, he called the three of them: "My all time favourite drivers".Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Michael apparently also chose Kimi to replace him. I know he was close to Filipe and mentored him, but I'm sure having raced against Kimi for a few years, he respected the Finn. Rather more than Kimi ever showed him respect, unfortunately in my opinion as I respect the great champion hugely, even if I am not particularly fond of him.
Watching this thread, it is interesting to me, that the people who want Kimi out of the Ferrari seat, are mostly die-hard Michael fans, who could never really warm up to Kimi after his move from McLaren.
For me, the record speaks for itself: Kimi is one of the three WDCs in the field, and both, Ferrari fans and Kimi fans should respect what they have achieved with each other, winning 3 championships in 3 years.
As a McLaren fan, I find no prospect more exciting than Kimi joining my favourite team. Hamilton and Kimi, means two WDCs in the driving seat. You've got to give it to them, that's a hell of a good combination of drivers to pair together.
2007:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Kimi:
Kimi had one electrical problem (Spain) and one mechanical problem (Europe). Not counting these two races, he finished the other 15 races with 110 points, which gives him 7.33 points per race.
Massa also finished 15 races and did not finish 2. Of the two, one was a suspension problem (Italy) but the other one, he missed the red light at the end of the pit lane and was disqualified, so I consider that a driver error. He had 94 points, over 16 races, gives him 5.87 points per race.
2008:
Massa had two retirements. In Australia he spun coming out of turn one when racing Kovalainen, so that's not a car failure. In Malaysia, he spun out of the race on lap 31, without any car failure. As such, I consider that a driver error too. As such, he had 97 points over 18 races, which gives him an average of 5.38 points per race.
Kimi:
Retired in two races and finished 16. Of these, Canada was definitely not his fault, as Hamilton ran into him in the pit lane, so I won't count that as driver error. In the European Grand Prix, Kimi had an engine failure. He had 75 points, over 16 races, which give him an average of 4.68 points per race.
2009 (until the end of German GP):
Kimi: Of the 9 races, Kimi finished 7 and retired in 2. He retired the Spanish GP with a hydraulic failure, so not a driver error. In Germany he had a radiator issue, so again not a driver fault. He had 10 points by the end of German GP, over 7 races, gives him an average of 1.42 points per race.
Massa: Of the 9 races, Massa finished 7 and retired in 2. He had a suspension problem in Australia, so not a driver fault. In China, he had an electrical issue, so again not a driver error. He had 22 points at the end of German GP, over 7 races, gives him an average of 3.14 points per race.
Overall:
Kimi: 195 points over 38 races: 5.13 points per race.
Massa: 213 points over 41 races: 5.19 points per race.
It is very clear that their points per race (excluding car failure) is very very close. 5.19 plays 5.13. Not much in it really.
You've forgotten (at least) that he crashed at the Singapore GP. I understand that was driver error.Quote:
Originally Posted by aryan
No, in Singapore, according to official Formula 1 stats, he is classified as 15th, as he had finished more than 90% of the race. So that's not considered a retirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
Anyway, 15th or driver crash doesn't change any of the calculations, neither the number of points, nor the number of races counted.
Some of the posts have been quite weird in this thread. Do people not realize that Kimi is the only WDC for Ferrari in the last five years? And on top of that, he did it in his first year in the team. Then there are ridiculous claims that he "lucked" the WC in 2007. Yeah, sure, winning the most races in the season and winning the championship can be termed "lucking it". :rolleyes: (Going by that effed up logic, Hamilton lucked it in 2008, and Schumacher in 2003.)
Sure, Massa came close in 2008, but bottom line, Kimi is a champion and Massa is not, yet. As simple as that. Ferrari would be the biggest idiots, wanting to replace a potent championship winning driver such as Kimi, who on his day is unbeatable, and on top of that pay off his contract! :eek: :rotflmao:
Of course there are bad races, but they happen in everybody's career. Nobody is a superman. The 2007 car suited Kimi and he delivered a championship, the 2008 and 2009 cars didn't, and so he struggled. I'm sure that after Massa's accident, Ferrari had all their resources and attention on Kimi and his car, and the setup he wanted. The results speak for themselves. They must be kicking themselves in the back right now, if the Alonso contract has already been signed.
Anyway, at this point of time, if he chooses Mclaren over Ferrari, it would be a very wise choice, seeing that Mclaren have produced a better car in the latter half of the season, and probably will carry that onto the next year. Nobody at this point knows how well the 2010 Ferrari is gonna perform. I say good for Kimi!
Highly unlikely that in these times of recession, pressure or no pressure from Santander, Ferrari would make the biggest dumbass, brain farting move in the history by replacing Kimi with Alonso, and then paying off his contract for what, $52 million for NOT driving for them, and then go ahead and pay Alonso too! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Ever heard of the expression: "To chop your own leg with an axe?"
I'll only say that one can see the differences between how Michael made history at Ferrari and how Kimi is doing the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by aryan
The difference in the work ethic of these two drivers are way to big for Michael fans to be able to cherish Kimi for his lazy approach. I like Kimi as a person with his one liners, but as a professional individual he is relying to much on his natural talent and too little on hard work for the team.
Back when Michael retired I hoped it will be Kimi who takes his place, not Alonso. Last season I realized I was wrong.
Let's think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by X-ecutioner
Ferrari operate on a 300+ millions budget. Next season this budget will already be halved. Everything over that is free for management staff and driver sallaries. Looks to me that they have enough money to pay out Kimi's over inflated salary and than anyway Santander will pay Alonso's salary, so the loss is already covered.
Add to this that no one can say for sure if next year Kimi won't fall asleep again for about 75% of the races, meaning that Ferrari might not get much in return for retaining him for 50millions for another season.
Money isn't a problem for Ferrari Marlboro F1, results are what they need, deliverd in a consistent way.
Never. Is it Indian or Finnish?Quote:
Originally Posted by X-ecutioner
Hopefully you are just kidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Now let's compare the ROI for each of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by aryan
195 points for 3x50+millions a year = approx 800000/point for Kimi
213 points for 12+12+18 millions = approx 244000/point for Felipe
My conclusion is that one of them should perform better in order to earn his pay.
Kimi was hired for a reason and he didn't really deliver what was expected of him.
As I already pointed it out I never was an Alonso fan, and I even cheered for Kimi in 2005 when he fought for the WDC against Alonso although I'm really not a McLaren fan. However as a Ferrari fan I believe that Kimi didn't bring what was needed.
Kimi has a WDC for Ferrari. That's what he was paid to do and that's what he has done.
Forget some statistically flawed perspective of value because it's immaterial. If you want a monatary comparrisson it is this.
Kimi - $150m - 1 WDC success
Massa - £$52m - 0 WDC failure
Which was the most cost effective?
You guys might not want him at Ferrari but getting him at McLaren would be superb for us :D We're happy :D
BTW, who's picking up the tab. Are Ferrari going to be paying him to race for McLaren ;)
I really hope this happens.
Fair enough, I see your point. But, Ferrari snatched Kimi from a rival team, of course they had to lure him with a lucrative contract. Massa on the other hand, owes his F1 life to Ferrari. Back in 2002, the only person in the world who would throw him a contract was Jean Todt; and good on him, cause Ferrari is reaping the benefits now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Back when in 2006 Ferrari was signing the contracts, Kimi had been a multiple time WDC contender, and was recognised across the paddock as a fast driver. Massa still had a lot to prove.
I think it is unfair to hold Kimi's salary against him. It's not like he bargained for the salary himself. These drivers all have management teams which represent them in contract negotiations. Kimi's management obviously had some nice negotiation skills, and were able to extract that salary for him. You can't even hold it against his management, after all, their job is to get the highest money for their client.
Seriously, the way I see it, Massa and Kimi have been very well matched over 2.5 years, and the only argument I hear against Kimi is his salary. You know what? I'm sure that extra WDC championship that Kimi brought to Ferrari (and Massa is yet to do) was worth the extra millions of dollars that he has cost them in salaries. At least!
Besides, Alonso would at least be twice as expensive as Massa as well. He probably will come with a 50 million dollar salary, at least. By the same logic, will you start calling him an underachiever if he doesn't get twice Filipe's points?