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Did I say all is good? I don't think so. I said things could be worse. Right now Russia IS NOT at war with Finland, and I'll be happy if it stays that way. The most stupid thing we could do is to start a war with Russia by ourselves, like the Georgians did. The Georgians screwed up their relations with Russia, and now they are paying for it. Just like Saddam's Iraq screwed its relations with the US in the early 1990s and paid for it later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
:mark:Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
America needs Chinese resources FAAAAAR more than China needs America. Like Camelopard said, have you checked the current trade imbalance between the two countries lately? :mark:
The war against terrorism was legitimate in Afghanistan. As you can see today Al-Qaeda cells have almost evaporated. I've always been a disbeliever with the connection of terrorism to Iraq and in my view initially was an unjust war. What I am saying now is that 'the ends justify the means.' The Iraq War in the future may be seen as a war of survival. Resources over human lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
The option was on the table for other countries to participate in Iraq. What was bound to happen is that all of the naysayers are now going to want a piece of the pie when it comes to Iraq's oil. America can deny this, but hasn't and already other foreign countries, aside from the U.S., have been investing money into Iraq.Quote:
Anyway, intersesting questions, cynical answers. It's still one more question that you omitted: If the reason is the one you mentioned was it fair to imply so many other countries in a war for US's own interests? If your answer will be again "Yes", then I want to know why.
This is why more and more people have an antiamerican attitude.
Also, do you really think Americans care if anyone is anti-American? This is a nation built on a platform of failure after the Revolutionary War. All of the brains in Europe believed that America was doomed to fail and now the United States is eating their lunch.
No, they're equal trading partners. At no time will China cut off America because that would spell disaster for their economy and vice versa. As long as both companies can trade, then there will be peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by schmenke
I meant to say "as long as Russia wasn't at war with Finland"Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
:mark: While a bilateral trade agreement exists, you may want to check recent immport/export figures between the two countries :mark:Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
And whom would China sell all the sh!t they produce? Africa? India? They don't have enough money! Not even Europe can consume as much as the US! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by schmenke
The funny thing is that us borrow money from china to buy chineese products.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Those Chinese are rather helpful aren't they :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomi
They sure are :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
You don't seem to realise that the PRC isn't just selling to the US. The PRC it's self has a huge population and consumerism is booming, when you have 1.3 billion people to buy stuff do you really think they care if the US stops buying from them?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
"Not even Europe can consume as much as the US!"
I'm not sure where you get this from, do you have any more information? ie just what are they consuming more of? I've seen lots of ''crap" made in the PRC being sold in Europe. The computer you are using at the moment, where was it made? My Compaq laptop was made in the PRC.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe
"In 2005 the population of Europe was estimated to be 728 million according to the United Nations, which is slightly more than one-ninth of the world's population."
Latest figure for the US is just over 300 million and I dare say that most economies in Europe are in far better shape than the US.
Glad I have my Halliburton shares....
I see....The ends justify the means...Maybe russians have the same reason.... Maybe what they do now is illegal but what they'll get at the end....Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
Ha! I won't speak in the name of other countries but mine. What options did we have when USA wanted the war and our aim was to enter NATO ?Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
I don't think they care, I think they SHOULD care. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
So tell us how can an economy grow if they produce only for themselves?! Where do they get the extra money for growth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
Ofcourse there are Chinese products sold in Europe, however Europeans on average earn significantly less money than Americans and they also pay much more for food, rent, cars, computers and fuel. So their possibilities to buy Chinese stuff is way less than for Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
Mine says it was made in Ireland! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
Take a look at how much money they earn and you'll see what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
You mean that slavery and dictatorship would justify what they do now?! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
No to go to war, and thus waiting a bit more for the NATO integration?Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Do you think that they didn't want us in the NATO as much as we wanted it?!
Why should they care?Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Do you care about what people you don't know think about you? I sure don't.
Edited double post
Well, one question now is whether Russia will go through with restricting oil supplies to the West. If it does, will it not effectively be imposing economic sanctions on itself? I don't know the extent to which Russian oil producers would start feeling the pinch if they lose their Western customers.
Their incomes will go downhill on a steep slope.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Since the whole Georgian incident started, their biggest company, Gazprom lost 50% of it's value!
You understand maybe that it is ostensible market value, and Gazproms biggest owner is I guess Russian federation, so how will it make their economy go downhill? Please explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Wouldn't they just sell to China instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Sure, you're right. The only difference is the Georgia is a free and democratic nation as opposed to Iraq, which I'm sure you'll agree, was ruled by a cruel dictator who loved to torture and kill thousands of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
First I have to know where you're from to comment further.Quote:
Ha! I won't speak in the name of other countries but mine. What options did we have when USA wanted the war and our aim was to enter NATO ?
No, America should not care what others think. How would that be productive? The U.S. has always been different in just about every aspect in regards to Europe and that individuality is what makes it a beacon of success.Quote:
I don't think they care, I think they SHOULD care. :laugh:
Can we get back on topic?
Georgia has cut off ties with Russia. I don't blame the Georgians since Russia decided to side with the separatists, oh, I almost forgot, and break international law. I'm sure Russia would probably be upset as well if Chechnya were suddenly recognized and funded by a more powerful foreign entity.
Also, the U.N has taken splendid photos of Georgians being wiped out in South Ossetia. I'm still curious if anyone will defend Russia since ethnic cleaning has now been initiated.
The passports. Sorry for slow reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew
Do you think it was OK when Saddam went after the Kurdish separatists or when the Chinese go after the Tibetan separatists, or does your approval of separatists depend on who they are against?Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...eir-homes.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28676Quote:
At a compulsory interview a new Russian appointed chief of police gives people a stark and simple choice: take a Russian passport, or leave the town.
Passports are a vital plank in Russia's strategy of securing a toehold in democratic Georgia. By issuing citizenship to South Ossetians, Russia gained a pretext to invade in early August, claiming to be defending its own from Georgian attacks.
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...nflict/2394567Quote:
I am sorry to say that, Moscow and the entire West because now Russia is basically protecting its clients and its own citizens. Up to 80 per cent of South Ossetian population have Russian passports
Believe what you want, but Russia has been clever. Give Russian passports to local people and you can claim that you're protecting your citizens whilst invading and extending your sphere of influence. Very clever :)Quote:
South Ossetia in Georgia shares a border with North Ossetia in Russia, as the two halves were divided following the Russian Revolution. However, recently many South Ossetians took up the offer to hold Russian passports.
Of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Saddam, as I stated earlier, is an evil dictator who made Kurdish people's lives very miserable. China decided to take over Tibet on a whim and subjugate everyone is sight. Both of these instances are ripe for revolt.
Now let's take Quebec as an example. Should they gain independence from the Canadian government? No! There isn't a single person being oppressed and no one can claim that the Canadian government is aiming to take away any of the Quebecan's rights.
If the people of Quebec want to be independent, but they aren't allowed to, isn't that itself oppression? Was that right when Finland declared itself independent in 1917, when they were an autonomous part of Russia, and weren't particularily oppressed by the Russians?Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
I think one has to draw the line somewhere. More important, surely, is whether the likes of Quebec, Scotland, Corsica, etc are actually being disadvantaged by being part of the countries to whom they belong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
But where should that line be drawn? And how do you define advantage and disadvantage? It's been said that China tries to modernize Tibet by building new infrastructure, but the Tibetans want to preseve their own culture and old customs. Is modernizing an advantage or a disdvantage, is preserving your culture and customs an advantage or a disadvantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Some in the more prosperous Northern Italy want Northern Italy to become independent from the less prosperous south. Economically it could be an advantage to them, but should they be allowed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_League_(Italy)
Quote:
After its success in the 1996 general election (10.1%, 59 deputies and 27 senators), the party announced that its aim was the secession of Northern Italy under the name Padania, an expression previously referring to the Po River valley, but to which Lega Nord gave a geographically broader usage that has steadily gained currency, at least among its followers. The party even organized a referendum on independence as well as elections for a "Padanian Parliament" (with no international recognition).
In later years the League have deemphasised demands for independence and focused rather on devolution, while remaining within the framework of Italy, as in its original goal: not to secede from Italy but to transform it into a federal state.
All hail our new Russian overlords!
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/87/...01_TopolM.html
http://www.dailytech.com/Russia+Test...ticle12818.htm
I wonder what the history books will list as the official start date of the 2nd cold war? lets just hope it stays a cold war :)
Gordon Brown is calling for measures to reduce Europe's dependancy on Russia for oil and gas. Good stuff. And in other news a guy who ran an anti-kremlin site was accidently shot by police.
Dear GloomyDAY, I think it's time for you to understand that no country in the world should be allowed to play the " universal gendarme " role and to decide for others. Democratic or tyranic, any country's sovereignity must be respected.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
Why not? Is America alone on earth? If you have to share the globe with other countries shouldn't you have relationships based on respect with them?Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
But that's the main differnce between America and Europe. Americans must always be " productive ". We, europeans, (still ) have a bit of morals. :laugh:
Were we in the position to wait? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ioan
I don't think anything, I just remember we were waiting much enough. It was always a national tragedy when we were rejected. We were admitted only after we were degrading servile to their interests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ioan
Well, how many of You were living in Soviet Union or the countries under the reign of SU. Ioan knows waht he is talking about. This Georgian incident reminded me a little bit of estonian Bronze soldier thing, which was clearly provoked by Russia's authotrities. They are stretching their muscles and at the moment just trying to see how West would react. And take a very good notice for the fact that most of the big European countries are now dependent - like Germany for example. Luckily our military did not came and tried to force local "stupid" russians (were only about 3000-5000 people) - Putin would've invaded us immediately. Putin was very upset and humiliated when SU was destroyed and he now tries to bring back this monster regime by using different methods. Let's do not forget that he is ex KGB guy, so he knows all the tricks needed.
I think that Western countries do need to decrease their dependence of gas, oil etc, which would make them politically weaker. Diplomacy is needed. We do not want separate them, but need to co-exist together.
Boris Jeltsin was a great leader, Putin is just like Stalin - idolized by his people, but cruel, bully and willing to sacrifice own nation to persuade his own dreams & goals.
And that goes for Russia too!Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Of course it does and it's a shame. But if "one" powerful country ( no names, important "person" :laugh :) is permitted to do such things then Russia may think they have the same right. I'm not a hypocrite to pretend that one part acts for humanitarian reasons and the other is evil. I'm talking about principles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Hey, you're right btw! I've always been thinking that why people cannot be nice towards other ppl and other nations? Always somebody wants to be conqueror and a great warrior or a great leader. And then we have situation like this... ugly, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
But in this case Russia wants to have their power restored in ex USSR countries and the ones who are not agreeing with them are being terrorized or affected in some ways - Baltics, Poland, Ukraine and Georgia are just a few examples. They are forcing their strict politics and expecting others to obey. This is the reason why Russia has not had good relations with most of their neighbours.
Would you obey your neighbour if he would tell you in a one fine day that he has occupied your house and you have to pay rent for it onwards?? :eek:
Yes, but Romanians got rid of their dictator on their own, because they wanted it bad enough. They didn't need (probably didn't even want to) Americans to "liberate" them by bombing their country to stone age, like in Iraq or Serbia.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
So? George Bush's dogs of war have been killing thousands of people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and tortured many too, in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. Why should Bush have more right to kill and torture people than Saddam or Putin/Medjedev?Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
The main difference between Bush and Saddam is that Bush mainly kills foreigners on the other side of the World (if we forget those death penalties he has approved in the US) but Saddam mainly killed his neighbors and his own.
Ofcourse, thats why told that ioan does know what he is talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
You think so?! Well we are not yet sure enough of that after almost 20 years! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Maybe it was the Americans who supported the Romanian revolution. There is no proof however, not for nor against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Sorry, double post.
Moral support is another thing than dropping bombs and missiles on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan