Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Ferrari told Rubens to let MS past like 10 laps from the end. It was Rubens who decided to make them sweat and leave it till the last moment - presumably to make a point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Ferrari told Rubens to let MS past like 10 laps from the end. It was Rubens who decided to make them sweat and leave it till the last moment - presumably to make a point.
Erm - my claim is that McLaren didn't impose direct team orders. The fact they ain't been accused by the stewards would surely mean they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
So my opinion is backed up by actual fact.
Regarding the double standards act - I'm going on my personal opinion, opinion is objective, there is no right and wrong opinion - we're all entitled to opinions, however I do feel some are rational and some are not. I think team orders should be used, but in a sportingly way as possible. Which is why I see situations as Austria 2002 as wrong, and Brazil 2007 or Germany 2008 as correct. Irrelevant of the team - as I've said numerous times to Iona.
But he seems happy to rant on and on and on and on about double standards, ignoring fact that Ferrari used similar orders in Brazil 2007 and no one made a fuss.
My post below is not aimed at you (so dont take anything posted personally :) )Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Ferrari fans dont deny that Ferrari have used the tactic in the past. What gets up our goat is people massacre Ferrari when they do it, but when we complain about another team doing it, we are being "unfair" or "biased". Austria 2002 caused such a stink when there were no team rules in place, it was perfectly legal, yet look at the uproar it caused. Why not uproar this time when there are rules now governing it. All we ask is for a bit of a balance and fair play. If people are going to point a finger they must be prepared to get a finger pointed back at them.
Virtually parking it at the hairpin ala Schumi's Monaco style (while his teammate happens to be right behind him) is not evidence enough for you :?: :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by jjanicke
I dont think honest Ron is about to reveal to the world what actually transpired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Yep, noone complained about Brazil 2007 so I see no reason why Germany 2008 should be any different.
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
The team orders rule was introduced so the teams wouldn't be too tempted to make their orders appear farcical, like in 2002. Anyone who thinks that the 'team orders' rule has not been broken since then is plain stupid.
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
People were appalled with 2002 because it was unjust and unsporting. For the record, I also disagree with DC moving over as well as there was no reason. It was silly but a stupid agreement between the drivers that should never have been.
Brazil last year and Germany this year were completely different.
Well, Heikki got his reward for being a good lapdog....
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69523
That's one less place for Alonso to go! :p
English is the international language bla bla bla, go tell that to a French for example!Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Or to a Chinese who never learned English. And the list could go on.
I see now the color of some so called F1 fans. If someone says something negative about their favorite team, than if it isn't said and reported in English, than it doesn't count anymore! It is a childish way of defending an argument.
As for my English, I bet it's better than your Romanian, or any other language that it happens that I speak fluently. :laugh:
What I don't understand is this. Finland isn't a small country, and in motorsport terms it punches well above its weight. There's a huge amount of speciallist motorsport press in Finland as well as the rest of the world. And yet. And yet... this quote attributed to Heikki has not been reported anywhere else expect in the one link eventually provided by someone other than ioan, despite my repeated asking. In fact, it's not even a quote, it's somebody's interpretation of what he may or may not have said.
Does that not seem strange to anybody else? That such a damning quote hasn't been picked up on by the media - either in Finland or anywhere else.
Could it be, could it possibly be, that Heikki never actually said such a thing?
Your point being?! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Strange, on the Max topic your incredible reasonable. But as soon as someone has a different opinion to yourself you come across very childish, in similar way to MSStill or whatever his name is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I didn't say English was the languange in France or China, I said its an international language, i.e the language which is most commonly used when nations communicate with eachother.
Taking into account the media is at the heart of globalisation, the large majority of the media population would have a very good basic understanding of the English language, if not fluent in it.
And your sterotyping me as well, I'm not a McLaren, Lewis or Heikki fan.
I just try to be objective and not let my favouritism or hatism (if thats a word) affect my judgement.
You still haven't come back to me about the Brazil 2007 inicident. No one made a fuss about it.......
I appreciate this post was not directed to me, but I think majority of McLaren fans accept that the team orders used in Brazil last year made sense. The post after yours by "McLaren fans" (supposedly anyway), all acknowledge it was reasonable to use them in Brazil 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
I don't think its double standards from McLaren fans (well, majority anyway) at all. I think its a matter of equality - giving both drivers a fair shot at title which is what McLaren fans feel. Or unreasonable use of team orders. But when used respectfully and in a sporting way McLaren fans tend to be fair.
Thats my interpretation from what I've seen anyway.
Sold his soul. He might get his first win as soon as Hamilton rams someone else in the pit lane, again, and might as well be never!Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Heikki will get his first win when he's quicker in the race than everybody else, including Lewis.
Simple as.
In fact, the only countries having English written press are the English speaking countries. So all the big news papers in the world are actually written in each countries language, which doesn't automatically makes them lesser as the English ones, no matter what English speaking people might think.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
So just because something isn't reported in the English written press it doesn't mean that it wasn't reported in at least as important mas media in another country (in our case Finland's F1 transmitting TV channel).
And to further address your claim about English I can tell you that countries do not communicate with each other in English if none of the countries is an English speaking country. In fact they will use translators and all the documents will be printed in both countries languages.
So something being, or for that matter not, reported in English isn't the most important thing, not for those who can use other languages too.
I hope I made myself clear, in plain English. :D
You might start a thesis on this hypothesis. Keep us posted in a few years about your findings!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Ioan - where did I ever say non-English speaking countries have English written press? I hate to sound patronising with this, but please, just read my posts carefully, and maybe just have a quick think before you reply to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Its common sense that press would be published in its host countries language.
And as for the rest, I find it hard to take you seriously. How can you deny that English is not an international language? Just look at Formula 1, every public figure in F1 can speak fluent English.
Yes true on a world stage translators are used, but at G8 summits, or WTO, IMF, World Bank meetings - they're all held in English. Its nothing about English being a neccessarily better language, it all comes down the economy of the world, with America leading the way (currently anyway), being an English speaking country. Just look at the internet, 80% or something are in English, despite only 20% odd of the world who speak English. Its because its an international language.
So back to what we were discussing, English IS an international language. And the media, being an internationally connected business, if something was said which had some credibility to it, it would have caused some kind of stories over here, in France, in Germany, in America.
What I'm pointing out is that your source is one Finnish website without any quotes, literally just an interpretation of his reaction. If it had any substance, it would have made the F1 media on an international basis, you can't say only reason you haven't got reliable source is because it was in Finnish. A more likely reason you can't find it is because it didn't have any substance whatsoever.
Well presumably by saying Ferrari owned up to it, and McLaren do it on the sly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Well that wasn't the case, Ferrari did tell Rubens to do it at last minute like that - Rubens decided to do it that way.
If thats not what you were refering to my apologies.
Just to end this debate:
Heikki said to Turun Sanomat -which is not a tabloid but a very respectable daily- in Finnish:
"- Ne sanoivat, että Lewis on takana ja on nopeampi kuin minä. Ei siinä muuta sanottu. Näin itse, että hän oli siellä ja oli ihan oikeutettu juttu, että talli neuvoi päästämään hänet ohitse, Kovalainen kertaili."
In English this is:
- They told me that Lewis is behind me and that he´s faster than me. That´s all that was said. I saw him there myself and its fully justifed that the team ADVISED me to let him pass me.
So you see that people actually quoted the wrong parts of the Turun Sanomat story. So YES there was team orders. YES Heikki was pissed but probably more about his own performance. YES it was a sensible thing to do for McLaren. And YES these things happen and they will happen in F1.
thank you for finally getting some closure on what was said; hopefully we let sleeping dogs lie - ferrari in brasil 2007, mclaren in germany 2008 the universe balances
Yes that was what I was referring to, and I stand by it, Ferrari publicly acknowledged that it was team orders, while McLaren never ever did that, in any of the cases they used team orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69542Quote:
Q: Heikki, some people are saying your role in McLaren is a support role for Lewis Hamilton. How do you see your role?
Heikki KOVALAINEN: Well, I think first of all I don't think Lewis needs any help. I think he has shown himself that he can do the job and that he doesn't need anyone there. The second point is that I am trying to do the maximum for myself and I am not helping any other drivers, that's for sure. And I have no instructions from the team.
In the past it has been very clear that at McLaren they have had the policy of equal drivers and both have the same opportunities. I have the same car, the same opportunity and I am just working towards improving the pace and the results. The last few races have been a little bit disappointing but the only way to move on is to keep working hard and eventually the results will come. Interestingly, following this conversation it always arises that I am helping and I am in the support role but I don't see it like that.
If Lewis doesn't need any help from Heikki, he still needs him. Each team has two drivers. :)
Not "help", but "co-operation". In races where Lewis is clearly faster, whether through his own talent or the team's strategy, he does not need to be held up for too long by his own team mate.
Now that we've actually got quotes, rather than speculation, I hope the matter can be put behind us.
Erm....Monaco 2007. Ron Dennis admitted team orders were used.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/6696953.stm
There many instances when DC has helped Mika Hakkinen. I'm not going to dig up every occassion, but to say McLaren have never admitted to using team orders is an out right lie. McLaren have admitted they use team orders when only one driver has a shot at title.
Also - no reply on my other post, same as you ignoring my comments about Brazil 2007.
I see a pattern of misreading my posts, arguing back - I point out you totally mis-read my post. And you can't argue back because you know your not making much sense.
And more to the point - you can't back up anything which you say and claim is fact.
Hi PoleQuote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
You will get used to our friend. Don't bang your head against a brick wall :D
Look who's taking again, Mr. See no bad ,Hear no bad (as long as it isn't about a certain red team).Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Not a proper quote with transcript, link and from a reputable source.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Whatever next :D
Heikki is right in what he says.
I've no doubt that Ron warned him that there was a fast Lewis coming behind him and that it was expected that Heikki wouldn't compromise the opportunity for McLaren to get the best possible result for the team. That's common sense.
However, no matter what people might claim, he was just told that Lewis was faster and was not ordered to let Lewis pass.
:rotflmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
I already am thanks Knock On :) .
I've noticed pattern, he mades outragous statements (with no sources), I correct him and prove him wrong - and he just ignores it and continues going on and on and on despite being proved wrong.
And then on other topics, he has a go at other people for not sourcing their statements!! Its double standards to the top!
And on this topic all he goes on and on and on about is the double standards of others.
I find it hard to take anything he says seriously, as he's obviously unable to make an unbiased obversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
All due respect, Heikki said this, Ron Dennis said this, the FIA and race stewards obviously agree with this.
Yet somehow your claiming they're all wrong, and you know better.
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/...0&postcount=31Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Give us the proof, in English, not in Finnish, latin or heiroglyphics, or just admit you believe the person who translated it because it suits your point of view. Not hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
There are more than 5 billion non native English speaker on the Earth, so learn to accept other language press too. If you can't that's your problem, not mine, nor of those who speak other languages and English. :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
You might want to take Chinese lessons in the not so distant future! :D
Arrows! People are talking about you!Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Oh, sorry, easy mistake to make.
It is a safe assumption that if whatever Heikki said was damning of McLarens team order policy, then it would be translated into english. What you have is two different translations of text that you can't read. So the onus is on you to provide the suitable justification of your viewpoint. [/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I hope not :p :Quote:
You might want to take Chinese lessons in the not so distant future! :D
...English is nicer on the ears :p :
ioanQuote:
Originally Posted by ioan
This really isn't hard to understand is it?
The person responsible (Heikki) in the interview you are referring to was quoted as saying he was informed that Lewis was behind him and much faster than him. There is no quote where he says he was ordered to let Lewis through. Provide otherwise or admit you're wrong for crying out load.
Apart from that article, Heikki and McLaren have confirmed that he was told that Lewis was coming up fast.
The FIA monitored the broadcast and saw no team orders.
So, what exactly are you trying to prove?
We all know that teams do not want drivers compromising their team mates and will have made it clear what to do if they're doing so as in Brazil and Germany. Nobody cares about Brazil with Ferrari and nobody cares about this apart from people claiming hypocrisy and double standards.
Can you provide evidence from Brazil where anyone on here has changed their minds or accept it's really you that is hypocritical with the double standards.
PS, I'm still waiting for the proof that I hate Massa but I bet I've got as much chance of you backing up that spurious claim as I have of you doing so in this instance.
Confucius say that when deep in the poo, it best to close your gob unless you want a mouthful :p :
Of course that was a team order. Yes, he was told that Lewis was faster...what else that is, if not a team order to order Heikki to move over?! That is the way they have to say. Otherwise there would be consequences.
If it wasnt a direct order, why Heikki was furious after race and swored that is not allowed to fight? In F1 extra in MTV3 JJ Lehto and Oskari Saari told how really furious Heikki really was because of team order before he calmed down... But of course you dont have to believe it because it just happened in finnish and not english, because in Finland we dont have a queen that God will save... ;)
I dont understand about that bashing towards ioan, he is saying how it is in this case. It was a team order, it happens in F1 and its a stupid rule.