Rumored 2009 IC Schedule

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Originally Posted by indycool

...IMO, Osama bin Laden doesn't even have the numbers of people who hate something so much...

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Are you really comparing TG to Osama Bin Laden?

While I don't respect TG as a leader or a businessman, I'd be very cautious about comparing him to a murderous terrorist.

Sure, both of them 'blew-up' something. And while the Indy 500 has been completely destroyed as we knew it, it can be rebuilt (but only if a competent leader is found).

But I'm certain that Bin Laden has way more than 10% of people who hate him so much they'd kill him with their bare hands. TG probably has less than .010% who feel this way.

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Originally Posted by -Helix-

I guess the World Series isn't a worthy championship anymore either considering baseball's popularity has declined considerably over the years and has been surpassed by football by a large margin.

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So the World Series involves one team competing against itself for the championship?

And that's the problem with apples to oranges comparisons.

No, not at all. I'm comparing the number of people you are picturing who are so hateful of TG that they won't watch a unified series. I think it to be very few...LOUD, but few.

Internet forums are loud, but few. After 12 years, all the fussin's bein' done on the forums, not in the stands, not on TV and not by the competitors or sponsors. That is in NO way representative of the fan in the stands who doesn't even know anything about a split in the first place or care like the folks in Edmonton, who weren't even ever involved in the split, but relished a bigger field and the drivers and cars from Indy, together with competitors they were familiar with, to run there.

You and the CW jihad just don't represent a lot of people. Your 100th of a percent who hate TG enough to switch off the TV is probably high.

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Originally Posted by -Helix-

When baseball is back at it's rightful place at the top, THEN it can rightfully be called the World Series.

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Or when they invite teams from all over the World to participate? It always seemed odd to me that it was a "World" series for American and one Canadian team...

Gary

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Ken, you want me to respond to your post 177 so here goes.

How do I know that IRL won't fall into the same problems as CART/CC? I responded to that in my last post. He doesn't have to try and satisfy a board of directors that only have their best interests at heart. He can look out for the sport as a whole. I know you think he's only looking out for himself/IMS. But lets think about that for a second. Your argument seems to be that he threw away Vegas and Loudon to "protect" IMS. What if it is the oposite? What if he thinks, like I do, that Vegas will be a failure because those fans have been poisioned to OW racing by the fiasco last year, and the Loudon's deal wasn't all it was cracked up to be? Couldn't that be seen as looking out for the sport as a whole?

Your specific questions now:
1) The current ICS is closer to CART than the "vision". No CART had a majority of road/street races, the "vision" was all ovals. Current ICS is 10-8 ovals. Simple math says closer to all ovals.

2) I've never heard that the city of Homestead is/was putting up cash for the race. But if they are so what? Maybe I'm missing something?

"so how is TG and the IRL going to keep the IRL from becomeing 15 rc/sc v 5 ovals as the schedule progresses over the next 2 to 5 years"
What evidence do you have that says he will? What will keep him from dropping all the road/street races and become "the vision" again? No one knows. Like IC says "time will tell", but I'm betting that the ICS is >50% ovals for quite a while.

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wow....good to see you finnally got on the same page as the rest of us...and thanks for a reasoned response...

but my apologies as it simply doesn't hold up

here's why

you argument biols down to ...'it's privatly owned, and TG doesn't have a board of directors to contend with'..

problem is (as I have previosly pointed out) those same power brokers of the sport that were leaders and players in CC and CART are currently in competitiors in the IRL....of coarse were talking specifically schedule here....

those players are signifacantly involved in the schedule....AGR: st Pete, Toronto.....Penske: Belle Isle......and Kalkoven: Long beach.....hey, Suprise they those all just happen to be street coarses added to the schedule in place of ovals the past 4 seasons

then thers Honda.... they would even play ball to Long Beach on the schedule for the Merger.....


so no Board of directors?... true... influentual power players who need to be appeased? absolutly

as to your point about 10/8 Ovals v Road makes the IRL still more vision than CARII.... well you conviently aren't factoring in (sorry it's just a fact) influental power broker team owners, engine leases, street coarses, spec cars and engines, foriegn built chassis and engines, ...

sory got to cut this short my daughter needs a bit of help with home work

but add an etc or two to last paragraph...you get the picture...it's not just schedule..


and to your last paragraph...'no one knows, time will tell'...

well I watched CART/CC follow the same path for a decede the IRL has been headed the past 4 yeras....right into BK....and of coarse the CURRENT HISTORY AND REALITY support that....'I believe TG has an affinity for real racecoarses doesn't'

Ken, you believe that cities around the world are just lusting after street races and I disagree.

With taxpayers in major markets supporting stadiums for football and baseball teams, adding a race track has run afoul of that, as was the case with ISC in Washington and Staten Island. As with the shenanigans with the San Joses, Denvers and Vegases in this country, any city doing due diligence is going to wait awhile if not forever. Heitzler could not get anything going in San Antonio or Palm Springs.

Certainly, there are various sources of power within the sport. Without race tracks, you don't have races. Without money and sponsors, you don't have teams. Without TV viewers, you don't have ratings. Without fans in attendance, you don't have promoters. Without engines, tires or cars, you're a pedestrian.

The trick for racing is to build solid business relationships among all of those entities. With that MANY entities, it ain't easy.

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Originally Posted by indycool

I'm comparing the number of people you are picturing who are so hateful of TG that they won't watch a unified series.

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Where do you think that hundreds of thousands of TV viewers have gone to that left after the split? Do you think they lying to Neilsen and secretly watching the IRL?

AOWR lost HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of fans during the last 12 years. They have not yet returned. Nor are they about to return anytime in the near future.

Those that wanted spec racing on oval tracks turned to watching The NASCAR Show (which saw it's rise in popularity coincide with the decline in AOWR). And while NASCAR offers a package that can at times be entertaining, there is a market for something different.

The problem I see, is that a bunch of old mid-western people are pontificating on what is best for the sport when the future of the sport depends on getting the young coast dwellers to watch, attend and participate.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Or when they invite teams from all over the World to participate? It always seemed odd to me that it was a "World" series for American and one Canadian team...

Gary

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And Honda won the Indy 500 because it was the best engine in the field?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

but I'm betting that the ICS is >50% ovals for quite a while.

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cool.... wanta take the bet I proposed to IC?


it's a good bet, I agree with IC....Louden looks good for 2010 IMO also

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Originally Posted by indycool

Heitzler could not get anything going in San Antonio or Palm Springs.

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very well could have been more a case of 'Mergermania'....with tracks like LB and toronto on the plate those may not have been given as much attention ...AT THE TIME

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Originally Posted by indycool

That is in NO way representative of the fan in the stands who doesn't even know anything about a split in the first place...

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And what percentage of these socalled fans don't know anything about the history of the sport they claim to be fan's of?

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Originally Posted by indycool

You and the CW jihad just don't represent a lot of people. Your 100th of a percent who hate TG enough to switch off the TV is probably high.

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And it's "you're", as in "you're wrong to label me a CW jihadist simply because I am not following the IRLista line of BS you are trying to feed".

I have never said I hate TG. But I do not respect him and I think he has been a failure.

It was not until he looked up at the calendar and saw the 100th anniversary of his track approaching that self-preservation kicked in and he accepted the idea that the sport needed to be unified.

I do not think that he has shown himself to be capable of turning this sport around. Time will tell if that is true or not.

Ken, your argument about the current direction of the IRL going to more street races just doesn't really hold much water either. If there were all these city's scrambling to throw money at TG for a street festival then why aren't threre more already? What about Vegas, Pheonix, etc. I don't see any one activly trying to add another street race that hasn't already been a proven winner. Toronto has been a pretty good race in the past so it makes sence to try and add it.

As for your bet ... I can't afford my own ticket so why would I agree to buy yours. Never bet more than you can afford to loose, even if it's a sure thing.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Ken, your argument about the current direction of the IRL going to more street races just doesn't really hold much water either. If there were all these city's scrambling to throw money at TG for a street festival then why aren't threre more already? What about Vegas, Pheonix, etc. I don't see any one activly trying to add another street race that hasn't already been a proven winner. Toronto has been a pretty good race in the past so it makes sence to try and add it.

As for your bet ... I can't afford my own ticket so why would I agree to buy yours. Never bet more than you can afford to loose, even if it's a sure thing.

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doesn't hold water?... are friggin kidding me

go back to the 2002 schedule.... then look at the 2009 schedule and report to us which races are and aren't on the schedule


and I'm willing to make the bet for 'bragging rights'..... are you

Rex, look at your own post, which says ".010%", therefore it's YOUR number.

You're right in time will tell. But one major obstacle, that of two series, has been removed.

And I doubt that a light bulb went off with TG about the 100th "500" coming up, so he made efforts to unify the sport. CC was toast and KK didn't want to do it any more. So, it was a matter of figuring out how to do it. That could've happened anytime.

So, find everything you think to be wrong with the IRL and hang on to all the vitriol about TG you wish if that's what floats your boat. There are some people who hafta hate something to have a release for their own various frustrations. If this is yours, it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by -Helix-

When baseball is back at it's rightful place at the top, THEN it can rightfully be called the World Series.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Or when they invite teams from all over the World to participate? It always seemed odd to me that it was a "World" series for American and one Canadian team...

Gary

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

And Honda won the Indy 500 because it was the best engine in the field?

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What does that non-sequitor have to do with the comment I made about the World series? I trimmed out all of the rest of Helix's message because I wanted to make a comment about baseball, no more, no less.

Please don't try to twist MY words into YOUR tirades, ok?

Gary

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Originally Posted by indycool

Ken, as we've discussed before, I don't bet on 'em.....time will tell......

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Like I said to Chuck..... I'm willing to make the stakes....'bragging rights'


are you?

it would be nice to see you actually stand by your convictions for a change

"Bragging rights" will be obvious to all on the forum.......deal....but you just posted you thought Loudon would be on the schedule in 2010, too, so guess we both win or lose on that one.

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Originally Posted by indycool

"Bragging rights" will be obvious to all on the forum.......deal....but you just posted you thought Loudon would be on the schedule in 2010, too, so guess we both win or lose on that one.

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I think it's a fair bet....I suspect we might see Louden (50%)and one of those three(75%) so it might just be a wash...

what fun is a sure thing?

ask Rosco.... I'll take an interesting bet any day

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Originally Posted by indycool

Rex, look at your own post, which says ".010%", therefore it's YOUR number.

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

... hate him so much they'd kill him with their bare hands. TG probably has less than .010% who feel this way.

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So do you think more or less people want to kill TG?

And do you really think those are the same people who left AOWR after the split that haven't returned yet?

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Originally Posted by indycool

That could've happened anytime.

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But it didn't, even though there were many opportunites during the past 12 years to do so.

He had two new issues this time, besides another the failing series reaching out to him. Honda's patience was running out and the 100th Anniversary was approaching fast.

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Originally Posted by indycool

So, find everything you think to be wrong with the IRL and hang on to all the vitriol about TG you wish if that's what floats your boat.

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Ok and you bury your head in the sand and get overly offended anytime someone says something remotely critical of TG.

Vitriol indeed...!

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Originally Posted by indycool

There are some people who hafta hate something to have a release for their own various frustrations. If this is yours, it is what it is.

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I'm sorry if I am not a fan of TG's leadership. He has not shown me anything spectacular, unless you consider the spectacular decline in AOWR popularity and the spectacular decline in the prestige of the Indy 500 to be his intentional goal. Because in this only,has he been hugely successful.

Does that make me a hater? That depends on your agenda.

Guess we disagree.....IYO.

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Originally Posted by indycool

Guess we disagree.....IYO.

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After going around in circles for over ten years with some of these guys that is probably the best response you can give.

That, or something I've tried recently, the "Ignore" feature. For example;

"This message is hidden because Ken is on your ignore list. "

Works as well as betting my head on the wall. : )

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

After going around in circles for over ten years with some of these guys that is probably the best response you can give.

That, or something I've tried recently, the "Ignore" feature. For example;

"This message is hidden because Ken is on your ignore list. "

Works as well as betting my head on the wall. : )

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cool.... at least one side of our disagreements won't boil to ' at least there not BK'.....

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Originally Posted by indycool

Ken, Gary has said it best. The scenario has changed from what was argued about for 12 years. It is informative of your agenda when you start bringing up past history about the IRL and do not place it in the context of the situation at the time.

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Current pole at TF is running at 87% believe the current IRL is closer to CARTII than 'the Vision'

so tell me again how mimicking a BK racing series is a good thing?

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Originally Posted by Ken

cool.... at least one side of our disagreements won't boil to ' at least there not BK'.....

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Ken, I have to admire you.

At the former CCWS sites you always get blasted as a "fence sitter", and at IRL sites you get blasted as a CCWS sympathizer. While I consider Tony George to be, um, uh, lets just say a uh, less than desirable, um, influence on the sport, I've felt you have always been even-handed in where you put your criticism.

:up:

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Originally Posted by Miatanut

Ken, I have to admire you.

At the former CCWS sites you always get blasted as a "fence sitter", and at IRL sites you get blasted as a CCWS sympathizer. While I consider Tony George to be, um, uh, lets just say a uh, less than desirable, um, influence on the sport, I've felt you have always been even-handed in where you put your criticism.

:up:

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it's pretty funny.... way back when I was firmly on the CC side of things...


then when it became clear that Champcar wasn't the CART I had fallen in Love I was just about the first to advocate "MERGER"....

and that lead to my being counted down at more than one Pro-CC site....

and of coarse the Irlistas simply said "screw CC and Merger, we don't need anything CC as it brings nothing to the table'....

and here we are with one defunct series.....a series it appears needed CC teams and drivers, venues, promotors, turbos, option tires, standing starts,
fans, ......

whats next Push to Pass and an exciteing new cable television partner?....I guess so


what a tangled web AOWR has weaved

i'm not sure what the argument is. We needed 1 series for open wheel racing to be successful. We need ovals, along with road, and streets, and a large field of talented drivers. We need a series that actually gets paid to be on tv. The merger solved all that. Sure, it's still a work in progress. But to say that the IRL was the wrong side to win, simply bec it is bringing over some of the good ideas from CC, is a pretty sad way to look at it.

whose argueing?

Back to the 2009 schedule and future schedules - after watching today's races (F-1, Grand-Am, ALMS and IRL) - the IRL can loose Sonoma just fine - I always thought the track was a snoozer - but what really drove it home was watching both the Grand-AM and IRL cars and then contrasting them with the ALMS cars at Mosport - the track at Mosport just made the cars look good - Sonoma did not....

Im waiting for the actions in St.Petersburg, it'll always a very good location and the rally there adds more excitement

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Originally Posted by racecraze

Im waiting for the actions in St.Petersburg, it'll always a very good location and the rally there adds more excitement

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?

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Originally Posted by Chris R

Back to the 2009 schedule and future schedules - after watching today's races (F-1, Grand-Am, ALMS and IRL) - the IRL can loose Sonoma just fine - I always thought the track was a snoozer - but what really drove it home was watching both the Grand-AM and IRL cars and then contrasting them with the ALMS cars at Mosport - the track at Mosport just made the cars look good - Sonoma did not....

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When Marty said Sonoma was picturesque, I was confused. It's way too dry, almost desert, mostly too hot and basically very average esthetically. It is the wine country however and folks from the Bay Area like to do those 1 day vacations there .... but isn't that really Napa? After spending 6 years in the area it made me really appreciate the mid-west allot more. Isn't Laguna Seca the place where Open Wheel cars should be racing on the west coast?

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Originally Posted by Starter

No, because Laguna is pretty much a one line, no passing race track for these type of cars too, just like Mid-O. It's really hard to find a track that permits good racing and passing these days.

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how about Fontana?

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Originally Posted by Starter

No, because Laguna is pretty much a one line, no passing race track for these type of cars too, just like Mid-O. It's really hard to find a track that permits good racing and passing these days.

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This is the problem with trying to iron out a good schedule - the issue of finding good venues is tough - many of the "classic" tracks do not allow for good racing with modern cars. Perhaps they key is to change the cars and develop a car that allows for multiple "fast" lines around any given track....

Just seeing a part of the Mosport ALMS race, I am thinking that a faster road course might provide more passing opportunities - the GT-2 cars in particular were really going at it and they looked pretty fast doing it...

However, one of my big problems watching Sonoma was that the cars just didn't look fast there - there was nothing for the viewer to use as a reference point.... By contrast, the Mid-Ohio race might have lacked for passing as well - but the cars looked exciting and fast - especially the pat where they crest the hill... There were lots of landscape/terrain features that allowed the cars to look good - Sonoma is just barren and depressing (at least on Tv - I love the area myself....)

Is there at least one poster here who hasn't found something wrong with any race track on earth mentioned?

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Originally Posted by indycool

Is there at least one poster here who hasn't found something wrong with any race track on earth mentioned?

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Spa. no, sorry, they screwed that up too when they messed up the bus stop chicane. And that stuppid entrance to the new pits.. WTF??? I hope they painted that wall a different color for this year's race.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Ratings up across the board almost 20%.

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IRL 2008 TV Ratings
Ovals
Homestead .8
Motegi .23
Kansas .66
Indy 4.5
Milwaukee .6
Texas .8
Iowa 1.1
Richmond .9
Nashville .5
Kentucky .43

Average with Indy: 1.05
Average without Indy: .68

Street/Road Circuits
St Pete .4
(Long Beach .8)
Watkins Glen 1.0
Mid Ohio 1.3
Edmonton (can't find ratings)
Sonoma .41

Average: .78 (excluding Edmonton)

^just saw the above #'s posted elsewhere... found them interesting and underwhelming