Thanks mate! I know I've become annoying, I'm sorry, but I really want to sort all this out.
Anyway, only 1977 & 1978 to go. From then on I would need much less help, I believe.
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Thanks mate! I know I've become annoying, I'm sorry, but I really want to sort all this out.
Anyway, only 1977 & 1978 to go. From then on I would need much less help, I believe.
Yes Janusz, I don't know how it worked then either - except that it must have been heavily biased towards Groups/Classes. 1965 was really the first year I have seen any details of it - Aaltonen finally clinched it on the RAC Rally in 65 and Fall was making his name doing many of the events in a private Group 1 Cooper S to avoid competing directly against the works Gp 2 cars. Then later we have Zasada winning in the smallest car ever!Quote:
Originally Posted by januszsz
The French Forum Auto has a thread on the Coupe des Alpes and one regular contributor there seems to have very good knowledge of the event. I'll see if I can compile a question there about results and how official an overall winner was.
Please can someone answer these questions from 1977 season:
Number of stages on Monte Carlo,
Number of stages on Swedish,
Number of stages on South Pacific (New Zealand),
Number of stages on Acropolis.
Thank you.
Monte-Carlo, 26Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
Sweden, 35
South Pacific, 75
Acropolis, 52 (3 of them cancelled)
Carles.
Someone knows....
5 giugno 1971
Barum Rally
Start: Gottwaldov
Finish: Otrokovicz
km. ????
1. ???? Halmazna - ???? Kostruh (Skoda 1100 MB)
2. ???? ???? - ???? ???? (????)
3. ???? ???? - ???? ???? (????)
7 giugno 1972
Barum Rally
Start: Gottwaldov
Finish: Otrokovicz
km. ????
1. Vladimir Hubacek - Vojtech Rieger (Renault Alpine A110 1600)
2. ???? ???? - ???? ???? (????)
3. ???? ???? - ???? ???? (????)
Thanks in advance
Giorgio
4 april 1971Quote:
Originally Posted by Giorgio
Barum Rally (Event open for no "licenced" drivers = usual drivers, not neccessarily rally-drivers)
Start: Gottwaldov
Finish: Otrokovice
km. 45
86 starters/86 finishers
1. ???? Halmazna - ???? Kostruh (Skoda 1000 MB)
2-4 June 1972
Barum Rally (CS Championship)
Start: Gottwaldov
Finish: Otrokovice
km. 610
120 starters/ 26 finishers
1. Vladimir Hubacek - Vojtech Rieger (Renault Alpine A110 1600)
2. Oldrich Horsak - Jiri Motal (Skoda 1500 /proto?/)
3. Milan Zid - Jan Soukup (Skoda 120 S Rally)
source: "Barum Rally od doku 1971 po soucastnost" by Pavel Vydra
Regards
Janusz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carles Bosch 2
Thank you Carles!
Does anybody know, in 1977 South Pacific Rally, what was the entrant of Ford Escort for Vatanen-Scott?
Was this the only works Ford on that rally?
Thanks.
I think he was entered by Masport, from the rally programme:
"He will drive an Escort RS1800 Mk II under the Masport colours."
Also Blair Robson was driving for Masport. I'm not sure if these entries rank as official works entries.
Graham Robson's (no relation to Blair Robson, I'm sure!) book "The Works Escorts" does not list the 1977 South Pacific Rally as works entries.
Great, Janusz !! Very Thanks !
Giorgio
How about 1979 Ford's armada(Mikkola, Vatanen, Robson & Donald) all entered by Masport(NZ)Ltd.?Quote:
Originally Posted by FAL
Are they listed as works entries?
Lists as works results, 1979 Motogard (NZ) Rally, only:
Mikkola (in WTW568S but re-registered in NZ as JB780)
Vatanen (in STW130R but re-registered in NZ as IZ8320)
Someone out there who can help me with this?
Who started with #47 in the rally 1958?
I have the numberplate, but don't know on which swedish car it was mounted.
In that year 302 cars started from different places, but only 36 finished in Monte Carlo! Unfortunately #47 didn't :(
/ S-A
Sten-Arvid, you can try to send an e-mail to [email:2mo0zzy4]contact@col-de-turini.com[/email:2mo0zzy4] <contact@col-de-turini.com> of the "Col du Turini" site. Good luck. :look:
The number 47 in the Monte 1958 was :
D. Weider - SY. Nystrom SAAB , starting from Oslo
Regards
Dario
Thank you DARIO! I´m most grateful!
Yes I thought its must be Dick Weider and Nyström because I got the plate from my since many years gone father and he was the chairman of MK Scandia, the club of Dick Weider and a very good friend of Dicks. Dick Weider was a former speedway-star in 1940 - 1950.
Vatanen entered by Ford Motor Co. and all the others by Masport (NZ) Ltd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
Regards
jorge
Hm, that's odd, the other two had the same cars (Escort RS 1800), and the same entrant-Masport(NZ)Ltd.Quote:
Originally Posted by FAL
So, what determines that Mikkola & Vatanen are works crews, and Robson & Donald are not?
What I want to say is: was there actually any criterium by which they could be distinguished, or was it purely provisional?
Hi jorge, what about 1977 Andruet-"Biche" at Monte and Andruet-Delferrier at Portugal, Acropolis, San Remo and Corse. I believe he was not a part of Fiat's works team. Do you know his entrant on these events?
Also, I believe there was no more official Alpine-Renault team in 1977, so what was the entrant for Frequelin-Delaval at Monte?
Thank you.
I don't think you can ever decide exactly. G.Robson's criterium is probably whether the cars were works-built and taken there direct from the works team's base. Non-works might be ex-works cars sold some time before or cars assembled locally (even if to full works specification).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
You then have the degree of "works" involvement on the actual rally. As an example with the Escort (which, incidently, by 1979 would not be an "RS1800" but the re-homologated Gp4 "Escort RS" - a car that was never actually built as a production car) some of the Sutton/Rothmans appearances were supported by key works people and others were not, but none were officially "works" entries.
A list of works entries that only included those made solely in the name of the factory team might be a bit thin.
I agree with FAL !
Sometimes you never know if they are official or semi-official drivers or teams and the examples of FAL are correct. Is the Rothmans Ford Rally Team the official team in 81?
Regards
jorge
Ok, I know that this particular question is a can of worms and as old as rallying.
Also, I know that in (far too) many cases there are no "correct" answers to whether a car is a "works", "semi-works", "works-supported" or privateer...
I wanted to know what are your feelings on the matter, and as I need to have some sort of criterium for my own records, I think I'll have it like this:
A car entered by manufacturer (for example Team Esso Peugeot), or local importer/dealer (like Marshalls(EA)Ltd. for Safari) would be considered a "works" entry.
All the rest wouldn't.
What do you all think?
Please, does anyone knows anything about these?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
On the Andruet Fiats, the french magazine "sport auto" says Fiat France.
Carles.
Thanks Carles. I suppose this goes for all 5 Andruet's outings in 1977?
Yes, all the entries by "Fiat France" or "Fiat Automobiles"
Regards
jorge
Sorry, already answered :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
my mistake..
Is it possible that Fiat S.p.A. entered no less than 6 works car on 1977 RAC?!
I have:
Alen-Kivimaki
Bacchelli-Rossetti
Verini-Russo
Lampinen-Andreasson
Makinen-Liddon
Salonen-Markkula
and I believe they're all works crews.
Also, at Criterium de Quebec, Fiat S.p.A. had 5 crews?
Alen-Kivimaki
Lampinen-Andreasson
Makinen-Liddon
Salonen-Markkula
Rohrl-Geistdorfer
Is that correct?
And finally, at San Remo, "Tony"-Mannini were entered by Fiat S.p.A. or ???
On 77 RAC 4 Fiats were entered as "Olio Fiat" the then name of the works team) but Makinen and Lampinen were entered by "Autonovo OY" (presumably the Finnish Fiat importer). The address given for all the Fiat entries was that of the UK Fiat HQ in Brentford, just west of London.
Follow the money, as they say... but I expect the service for all was co-ordinated.
It was quite normal to have large numbers of the same works cars on the RAC (BMC Cooper S in 1966 - 6?, Ford Escort RS 1979, etc.)
Thanks FAL!
Yes, Autonovo OY was entrant of all works Fiats at 1000 Lakes, so it should be Finnish importer.
Do you possibly know the entrants of 1977 RAC for Fords of Waldegard-Thorszeluis, Clark-Pegg, Vatanen-Bryant & Hamalainen-Scott?
I believe these were the 4 works cars.
And for the one of Brookes-Brown the entrant was probably Andrews Heat for Hire?
Waldegard, Clark, Vatanen "Ford Motor Co." (different sponsors). Hamalainen "Peter Clark Autos Ltd." Brookes "Andrews Heat for Hire".
Those are the entrants - but I think Brookes car in 77 was run by the works (he had bad experiences with works preparation and servicing in 1975 - it cost 3rd place on the RAC - and for 1976 his (originally works-built) cars were prepared and serviced on events by Peter Harrison. For 1977 I believe it was a works run car again.
Peter Clark I belive ran the car for all of Hamalainen's UK programme (originally a works-built car - STW130R on the 77 RAC - we see that number removed from a car for New Zealand later!) (Peter Clark was the driver who went into the Lake on the Woburn stage on the 71 RAC with Tony Mason).
Regarding Fiats - Salonen was Autonovo and Lampinen was Olio Fiat (I wrote the wrong name, despite checking).
However, a photo exists of the Ford works team arriving at Wembley from Boreham for scrutineering for the 77 RAC with only 3 cars on the low-loader/trailer (Clark, Waldegard, Vatanen). These 3 are probably the only ones to genuinely qualify as "works" for this rally.
Robson lists all the above 5 cars plus Dawson and Hainbach as works cars (not works entries) for the 77 RAC. Andy Dawson had a works car on loan for the 77 UK season, entered by Woolworths but with his own garage as the address. Reinhard Hainbach is listed as a purely private entry with his home address in Germany but I believe he had money from Ford Germany.
Thank you so much FAL. Your answers are priceless to me!
And just to finish off 1977 Lombard RAC rally, I wonder what entrants do you have for Toyotas of Mikkola-Hertz & Therier-Vial (I presume they were both entered as "Team Toyota(GB)Ltd."?), and the Opels of Rohrl-Pitz, Carlsson-deJong, Danielsson-Broad & Kullang-Berglund.
I'm not sure if "Opel Euro Handler Team" existed at all in 1977 as an entrant.
FAL, I'd like to know do you have any entrants from other rounds of 1977 world championship, or just from RAC?
Thanks for everything!
Toyota entrant was "Team Toyota" with the address of Toyota GB. Rorhl and Kullang were "Opel Euro Handler Team" with the address being Russelheim (same entrant of Opels as on 1976 RAC). Carlsson was "Dealer Opel Team Holland" and Danielsson was "Dealer Opel Team" (the UK operation of Tony Fall).
But it gets even more complicated....
The Ford entry of John Taylor/Phil Short was "Haynes of Maidstone" and I think by then they built their own cars (so this is not recorded by Robson as a works-built Ford on this rally) although it would have been serviced partly under the Ford "umbrella".
The contemporary event report refers to 3 works Ford entries only. (Ford in UK were of course also funding the Group 1 RS2000s of Malclom Wilson and Graham Elsmore in addition to the other cars mentioned above).
As for Fiat, the event report refers to 6 works entries, 4 from Olio Fiat "in the blue and yellow colours" and 2 from Autonovo "in the black and white colours of the Chequered Flag".
There was a 7th Fiat actually entered by The Chequered Flag (Garage) for Billy Coleman/Dave Richards. This was an ex-works car that was in the UK throughout 1977 for the Brtish Championship.
BUT... I have now seen a photo of the Lampinen car on the 77 RAC and it is NOT in the Olio Fiat colours but carries "Fiat UK" and "The Chequered Flag". The Lampinen car on the provisional entry list I have was one of the Olio Fiat entries not Autonovo.
There was also of course one Stratos for Munari ("Lancia/Alitalia" but with the address of Lancia England) and I see Lancia attempted to obtain a late entry for Darniche too but this was corrrectly refused as there was already a long list of reserves (this is interesting for me as I co-drove the very last private entry that actually made it into the rally from the reserve list!).
Obviously Fiat UK (and The Chequerd Flag Garage - Graham Warner a dealer that sold the more "sporting" Fiats and Lancias in the UK - were a major source of funding for this large Fiat entry. What I cannot remember is whether Fiat had already won the Manufacturers WRC by the time of the RAC (Waldegard was first drivers champion?). If so, maybe they were going to withdraw all entries and it was only money from Fiat UK that brought them to this RAC?
What I also cannot remember is seeing any of the works cars on the event itself (I was running at the back) and the only magazine photo I can find is the Lampinen one - so I don't know the actual colours of the others.
(and no, I dont have such details for other 77 WRC events - I wasn't entered on them!)
Wow, the most interesting read! Thank you so much FAL! Your effort is greatly appreciated.
As for the whole Olio Fiat/Autonovo/Fiat UK/Chequered Flag thing, I've decided to keep Lampinen with Alen, Bacchelli & Verini as "Olio Fiat" and Makinen & Salonen as "Autonovo OY".
And, yes, Fiat actually won the manufacturers' title before the RAC, 'cos Ford took maximum 18 points from it, and Fiat's 6 wasn't counted anyway, 'cos they had previously score 8 better results.
So that makes it all the more weird, to enter 6 cars in a rally, with the title already in the pocket?! Mind you, there was still no Drivers' championship in 1977. There was a FIA Cup for drivers, but I don't think that was really important to Fiat.
Anyway, thank you very much FAL for your help about the RAC. :up:
Soon, I'll move to 1978, so your contribution would probably be needed again, but before that I have some more gaps to fill in from other '77 events.
(jorge are you around?) :D
Ok, let's continue then.
Does anybody know :
1.The entrants on 1977 Monte Carlo for:
Zanini-Petisco, Seat 124 D Especial 1800
Canellas-Ferrater, Seat 124 D Especial 1800
Servia-Sabater,Seat 1430/1800
Frequelin-Delaval, Alpine-Renault A310 V6
2.The entrants on 1977 Swedish Rally for:
Mikkola-Hertz, Toyota Corolla
Airikkala-Virtanen, Toyota Celica 2000 GT
Danielsson-Sundberg, Opel Kadett GT/E
Kullang-Berglund, Opel Kadett GT/E
3.The entrants on 1977 Safari Rally for:
Cowan-White, Mitsubishi Colt Lancer
J. Singh-Doig, Mitsubishi Colt Lancer
D. Singh-Bates, Mitsubishi Colt Lancer
4.The entrants on 1977 Rally Acropolis for:
Rohrl-Pitz, Opel Kadett GT/E
"Siroco"-Makrinos, Datsun 160J
5.The entrants on 1977 Rally San Remo for:
Ballestrieri-"Rudy", Opel Kadett GT/E
"Tony" (Fassina)-Mannini, Fiat 131 Abarth
Pregliasco-Reisoli, Lancia Stratos HF
...and if you thought Ford was difficult for the 77 RAC.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
I'll try and write down 78 RAC while I have time and while I've just been into the records:
There were no Ford works entries on the 78 RAC - the end!
In the weeks leading up to the 78 RAC, there was a national strike at Ford. The works mechanics had previously joined the trade union and had to strike. The Boreham Competitions Department was picketed along with other Ford sites. Some partially-built cars were removed just before the picketing started and parts were taken out at night (some of the pickets at Boreham were the works mechanics, so they could "look the other way"!).
Officially, entrants were:
Eaton Yale - Waldegard
Eaton Yale - Mikkola
Marlborough - Vatanen
LiLo - Clark
Andrews Heat - Brookes
Haynes of Maidstone - Taylor
Peter Clark Autos - Jean-Pierre Nicholas
3 separate teams ran 2 cars each:
David Sutton Cars - Mikkola and Vatanen
Haynes of Maidstone - Clark and Taylor
Russel Brookes' mechanics, with help - Waldegard and Brookes
These 3 teams were supported on the rally by all the key Ford Boreham team people such as Peter Ashcroft, Alan Wilkinson (about to become famous for his 1979 Monte Carlo tarmac special Escorts), Charles Reynolds and the infamous Mick Jones.
Mikkola's car (that won) was STW200R, removed from the works partly built, finished by Sutton mechanics and re-registered SJN830R to disguise where it had come from. It became STW200R again after the rally.
Vatanen's car, MLD999P was built by Sutton and used as a rally hire car by Sutton after the rally.
Waldegard's car WTW568S was "sold" to Thomas Motors, Blackpool as a partly finished car to get it out of Boreham. It did not go to Blackpool but went to the garage of the private house where chief Boreham mechanic Mick Jones lived. He finished it. After the event it was "sold" back to Ford.
Brookes' partly built car UNY956S was sold to Jeff Churchill. (Brookes was in a factory car for the 78 UK season). It was then loaned to Brookes, who's own team (Peter Harrison etc?) finished it for the RAC and it went to Churchill as a rally hire car afterwards (Churchill was later best known for running a "hire" Escort for Droogmans in the Belgian championship).
The Clark and Taylor cars were built at Haynes of Maidstone, using parts from Ford Boreham and the numbers of the 2 cars Taylor had previously used: OKK380P and SKK625R. I believe it was this "OKK" car that was later used by Tim Brise (brother of F1 driver Tony Brise, who had died in Graham Hill's air crash) to lead the first day of the 1980 RAC on Kleber tyres.
Enough......!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaps
If memory serves me right...
Zanini & Cañellas were entered by Seat Competición
Servià was entered by the RACC (Reial Automòbil Club de Catalunya)
Carles.
somebody have ,complet or not ,classification about touquet 1994 &1993 ? (french rally championship)
thanks a lot