Driver who never got the break

Anyone remember Stephane Sarrazin's brief foray into F1? Ok, maybe not world champion material, but could have been a handy guy for a team like Prost or Minardi.

Marc Gene had a good start, but look rather flat in 2004 I remember. Still, had talent (a smart bloke too).

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Just as was the case with Gilles Villeneuve and probably Senna too, their deaths have made people forget many things and start hyping them.

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I've seen you post some crap before but you've taken it to heights I never thought possible :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

and never would have amounted to anything near that.

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My point is that after 1.5 Formula One seasons in an underpowered Tyrell and potential shown during that time, you cannot possibly prove that he would or would not have amounted to someone like Senna or Prost.

I can guarantee you nobody would have thought Prost would score nearly twice as many wins as Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark and more Championships than both of them after 1.5 years into his F1 career. Senna's case may have been a little different, but I wouldn't know about the hype around Senna at the time as his debut was 6 years before I was born.

As Bellof's career is an unknown or unfinished quantity, it is something you can only question or ponder, which is exactly what the person you quoted in this thread was doing. The fact is that you cannot possibly prove or disprove speculation of the unknown. The person you quoted would have seemed silly IF they had said that Bellof WOULD have been a great, because they would have been making a blanket statement of what isn't there. Said person didn't do that, but you did, making your argument a little silly indeed.

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Originally Posted by Randall Flagg

Anyone remember Stephane Sarrazin's brief foray into F1? Ok, maybe not world champion material, but could have been a handy guy for a team like Prost or Minardi.

Marc Gene had a good start, but look rather flat in 2004 I remember. Still, had talent (a smart bloke too).

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I remember Sarrazin's amazing crash and spin at Interlagos! Seriously, he did seem to have the makings of a GP driver.

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Originally Posted by CarlMetro

I've seen you post some crap before but you've taken it to heights I never thought possible :rolleyes:

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I think Garry speaks some sense. Don't get me wrong, Senna and Villeneuve are my two greatest heroes, but it's interesting how people erase their bad points from memory. Particularly in the case of Senna.

Sarrazin qualified 18th for the Brazilian Grand Prix in a Minardi, also outqualifying team-mate Gene there. Sarrazin also did pretty well in F3000. So I think he could have deserved more chances in F1. But as the competition is so tight and there are clearly more drivers, who deserve to be in F1 than those, who actually are there, then alas all the talents can't get a proper chance. And Stephane happened to be in the latter group.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Very sadly, for you, you are mistaken.

Bellof didnt particulary shine against Brundle in equal cars, and people need to wake up to reality in regards to Monaco 84. It was so wet, that the fact that Tyrrell didnt have Turbo, actually started giving them an advantage. Added to that, that car was illegal, so its was pure cheating. And in addition to that, he actually wasnt gaining on Senna most of the time.

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Senna only just beat Brundle in the British F3 championship the year before, in more or less equal cars (I am assuming that they are very close to equal) so how you could say with such certainty that Bellof would not have been as good as Prost or Senna with such certainty?

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Very sadly, for you, you are mistaken.

Bellof didnt particulary shine against Brundle in equal cars, and people need to wake up to reality in regards to Monaco 84. It was so wet, that the fact that Tyrrell didnt have Turbo, actually started giving them an advantage. Added to that, that car was illegal, so its was pure cheating. And in addition to that, he actually wasnt gaining on Senna most of the time.

The reason Bellof is so highly regarded, despite the fact he did pretty much nothing in F1, comes down to one thing - his death on racetrack. Just as was the case with Gilles Villeneuve and probably Senna too, their deaths have made people forget many things and start hyping them. That is undeniable nostalgia.

Not that Bellof wasnt a good driver. He was. But he was nowhere near the quality of Senna or Prost and never would have amounted to anything near that.

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Very well put. :)

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Not that Bellof wasnt a good driver. He was. But he was nowhere near the quality of Senna or Prost and never would have amounted to anything near that.

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I don't think that 22 GP's for the declining Tyrrell team enables us to be as sure of Bellof's future career as you appear to be.

For one thing his performance in the '84 Monaco GP should not readily be dismissed, as he almost matched that kind of performance with 4th in Detroit the following year in different, but equally difficult, conditions. Having said that, Brundle was ahead until Alliot took him out of the race.

Bellof's death, and the passing of time, should not diminsh the potential he showed.

More about Stefan Bellof here - http://www.stefanbellof.de/

What about Elio De Angelis? I never saw him race myself and am wondering what other think of him. Here are some statistics comparing him and his teammates through all the full seasons in which he has raced (1979-1985)
1979 Team Shadow
De Angelis: 16th position (3 pts)
Jan Lammers: last place (0 pts)

1980 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 7th position (13 pts, 1 podium )
Mario Andretti: 20th position (1pt)

1981 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 8th position (14 pts)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (8 pts, 1 podium)

1982 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 9th position (23 pts, 1 win)
Nigel Mansell: 14th position (7 pts, 1 podium)

1983 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 18th position (2pts)
Nigel Mansell: 13th position (10 pts, 1 podium)

1984 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 3rd position (34 pts, 4 podiums)
Nigel Mansell: 10th position (13 pts, 2 podiums)

1985 Team Lotus
De Angelis: 5th position (33 pts, 1 win, 3 podiums)
Ayrton Senna: 4th position (38 pts, 2 wins, 6 podiums)

As shown, De Angelis was faced with championship material drivers in 6 of the 7 full seasons in which he raced and managed to beat them in 4 times out of 6. He almost matched Senna in points in 1985 as well. Like many other possible talents, he too died in an F1 race in 1986 before ever having a chance at driving a car that can regularly challenge for wins or podiums.