WRC main class in 2025

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Originally Posted by lmmjvss

wrc fans: "we need manufacturers"
manufacturers: "we would like to race electric and hybrids"
wrc fans: "no this is ridiculous!!"
manufacturers: entering dakar, le mans, extreme-e, fia e-gt, formula-e, doing 'gymkhana' videos...."

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Lets see:
Dakar no BEV (not even possible tbh)
WEC/Le Mans no BEV (again not even possible)
Extreme E spec series with manufacturers throwing some money at it but not really manufacturer teams
E-GT still a few years of and yet to see what it will be like (spec like any other electric racing?)
Formula E spec series that is currently loosing manufacturers to you guessed it primarily ICE focused series
I'd rather not comment on drift videos.
Put the words of some "journalists" (=more like influencers) and PR people of manufacturers into contex with what is happening in real life, theres a big discrepancy.

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Originally Posted by mknight

"The car will be slower than Rally2"...as you know there is lot more to a car speed than just weight+power. This kind of statement is on the level of people claiming last summer how new Rally1 will be slower than any R5.

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There is more yes, but power/weight is the defining factor even in aero based formulas 10kg less mass gives you the equivalent lap time gain as hours of wind tunnel work.

The power density isn't there to have a power/weight ratio that is competitive. Giving BEV a way to compensate for that opens up the disscussion that Mirek touched on, why not give an ICE car the same amount of power? After all any cast iron something with a turbocharger can produce more power than you could put to use.

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Originally Posted by Franky

mknight and Mirek talking about EVs in rallying. Time to get a popcorn refill.

I won't get into much details as I'm leaning towrards Mirek's side, but based on your post mknight:

You are talking about charging after and before the stage, so with 4 stages repeated you need 8 sets of charging "stations", plus service charging. How long would it take to complete Rally Finland 2021 with your idea? And how long would be the charging period when you have 5-6 cars charging at the same time? Link to Rally Finland 2021 itinerary - https://www.ewrc-results.com/timetab...-finland-2021/

Regarding fire brigades, so it would be 8 extra brigades in addition to the ones that already are at the rally. Do the locations have so many fire brigades to spare for some motorsport event?


WRCstan, did Nikola finally prove that they actually have a working technology? Haven't followed any news about them after they were exposed for blatant lying.

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Nikola is belly up as far as I know. Bankrupt. Actually there's allegation about fraud

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Mknight is presenting a charging competition instead of rallying. No facts, just some random thoughts while Mirek backs his opinions with numbers and calculations... Who do I should believe...

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The Fórmula-E powertrain allow those cars to race 45 min. In Rally, With more braking (regeneration) and slower top speeds (energy consuption) PLUS next season fast charge tech that will be used (tech in development - using motorsport to do so).. Could that kit perform?
I cant math properly like an engineering but my bias is more on the "wrc can be electric with current tech and under some little tweaks on the format" but hardcore fans simply dont want to lose the engine sound.

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Originally Posted by becher

Lets see:
Dakar no BEV (not even possible tbh)
WEC/Le Mans no BEV (again not even possible)
Extreme E spec series with manufacturers throwing some money at it but not really manufacturer teams
E-GT still a few years of and yet to see what it will be like (spec like any other electric racing?)
Formula E spec series that is currently loosing manufacturers to you guessed it primarily ICE focused series
I'd rather not comment on drift videos.
Put the words of some "journalists" (=more like influencers) and PR people of manufacturers into contex with what is happening in real life, theres a big discrepancy.

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Motorsport will always be kinda spec. Im not a big fan of that but it is what it is. And I said Electric "and hybrids". Most of us were complaining last year about the costs of hybrids here, as if toyota hyundai ford were worried about this (rally division uses what? 0.1% of the brand's billionaire budget?). Now things are heading more and more into electric and here we are again complaining while we keep screaming "we need manufacturers" haha
What you mean? That all these brands will not start to produce only hybrids and electric from 2025 and on?

2025 main class will not be decided by discussions in an internet forum. Stop wasting time.

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Originally Posted by fiscorpun

2025 main class will not be decided by discussions in an internet forum. Stop wasting time.

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Your time? Delete your account then. Nobody is wasting my time I'm enjoying this discussion.

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Originally Posted by lmmjvss

The Fórmula-E powertrain allow those cars to race 45 min. In Rally, With more braking (regeneration) and slower top speeds (energy consuption) PLUS next season fast charge tech that will be used (tech in development - using motorsport to do so).. Could that kit perform?
I cant math properly like an engineering but my bias is more on the "wrc can be electric with current tech and under some little tweaks on the format" but hardcore fans simply dont want to lose the engine sound.

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There is not more regeneration in rallying than on circuit. That is misconception and it's exactly opposite because you can never achieve near ideal circuit conditions in rally.

Let's have a look on the formula E because that also works in the real life. The battery has 54 kWh, nearly the same as the Kreisel RE-X1. Why can it have so relatively small battery? Because there is way higher renegeneration level on the circuit and because the car is basically all made of carbon (the rest of the car weights nearly nothing).

I have counted 200 kg for 48 kWh in my previous estimation (taking into account roughly 250Wh/kg density). So what is the weight of the formula E battery? The battery alone has 250 kg, quite similar to my estimation, BUT there is the cooling which allows all that fast charging, high-level of recuperation and high power delivery (max. power in race mode is 220 kW). Together with the cooling the battery pack weight is 385 kg! That's for just 54 kWh capacity.

So why can the Formula-E run that long time with such battery? The car alone without the battery pack and the driver is only 440 kg heavy! That means that the whole car has a weight just a bit higher than the battery pack alone. Similar weight of the car is of course completely unreal for rallying. Realistically we can not expect the cars to be reasonably lighter than the Kreisel RE-X1 which has a weight of 1330 kg with a battery slightly smaller than the one from Formula-E. Formula-E delivers 220 kW of race power. That's not that bad for a 900 kg heavy thing including the driver but hardly anything breathtaking. The RE-X1 has however 1500 kg (including the crew) which is 600 kg more! 220 kW is roughly equivalent to the Rally2 cars, Rally1 cars are much stronger and both are about 100 kg lighter.

Now the recuperation. We can easily count the average power output of the formula-E car. The race has 45 minutes, the battery has 54 kWh. If they run it dry they take in average 72 kW of power. Surprisingly low value, isn't it? According to Kreisel their car uses in average 120 kW on a stage (value counted from their stated 1,2 Wh/km for an average speed of 100 km/h). Why so much more? Because the car is much heavier and because the recuperation on circuit is much more effective. And even those 120 kW (70% more than formula-E) is not enough to fight the rally2!

So if we put the Formula-E battery into a rallycar we get something very similar to Kreisel RE-X1. Is that surprising? I don't think so. It shows that there are certain common limits for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

There is not more regeneration in rallying than on circuit. That is misconception and it's exactly opposite because you can never achieve near ideal circuit conditions in rally.

Let's have a look on the forumla E because that also works in the real life. The battery has 54 kWh, nearly the same as the Kreisel RE-X1. Why can it have so relatively small battery? Because there is way higher renegeneration level on the curcuit and because the car is basically all made of carbon (the rest of the car weights nearly nothing).

I have counted 200 kg for 48 kWh in my previous estimation (taking into account roughly 250Wh/kg density). So what is the weight of the formula E battery? The battery alone has 250 kg, quite similar to my estimation, BUT there is the cooling which allows all that fast charging, high-level of recuperation and high power delivery (max. power in race mode is 220 kW). Together with the cooling the battery pack weight is 385 kg! That's for just 54 kWh capacity.

So why can the Formula-E run that long time with such battery? The car alone without the battery pack and the driver is only 440 kg heavy! That means that the whole car has a weight just a bit higher than the battery pack alone. Similar weight of the car is of course completely unreal for rallying. Realistically we can not expect the cars to be reasonably lighter than the Kreisel RE-X1 which has a weight of 1330 kg with a battery slightly smaller than the one from Formula-E. Formula-E delivers 220 kW of race power. That's not that bad for a 900 kg heavy thing including the driver but hardly anything breathtaking. The RE-X1 has however 1500 kg (including the crew) which is 600 kg more! 220 kW is roughly equivalent to the Rally2 cars, Rally1 cars are much stronger and both are about 100 kg lighter.

Now the recuperation. We can easily count the average power output of the formula-E car. The race has 45 minutes, the battery has 54 kWh. If they run it dry they take in average 72 kW of power. Surprisingly low value, isn't it? According to Kreisel their car uses in average 120 kW on a stage. Why so much more? Because the car is much heavier and because the recuperation on circuit is much more effective. And even those 120 kW (70% more than formula-E) is not enough to fight the rally2!

So if we put the Formula-E battery into a rallycar we get something very similar to Kreisel RE-X1. Is that surprising? I don't think so. It shows that there are certain common limits for everyone.

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Hmmm interesting. So right now the tech "stops" on the RE-X1 car or if manufacturers had more room to play around it could be at Rally1-ISH levels? Considering the weight-performance-safety balance... Like, are the current tube frame cars lighter?