The Jordan & BAR days weren't awesome were they, then taking over the team did seem to set the world alight either. However I am sure they have a chance of producing a good Engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
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The Jordan & BAR days weren't awesome were they, then taking over the team did seem to set the world alight either. However I am sure they have a chance of producing a good Engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Yep, I don't doubt that, it's just that people keep saying Honda produces great engines but I don't see them anywhere, at least not in their passenger cars. I mean look at their normally aspirated engines, they're nothing special. The Koreans, for example, produce better ones not to mention makers that've gone the turbo route. Still, it's great to see them back.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Honda's naturally aspirated engines are world class. Moreover, it's quite interesting that Honda pretty much refused so far to invest in turbo engines. Instead, they developed this new "Earth Dreams" engine that's now in the 2013 North American Accord (the 2.4L) version. By all accounts it's a class leader right now. Point. Nothing comes close. It gives excellent performance, compared to all competing engines, including turbo, and probably the best fuel economy in class. The power output is considered to be "underrated" from factory. The behemoth 2013 Accord with 2.4L can accellerate 0-60mph under 7 seconds and deliver near 40mpgs on highway. Neither Honda engines are "lazy". Honda's Civic SI always competed pretty well against the equally priced VW GTI and Jetta GLI with 1.8/2.0T engines, beating VAG cars on trace track tests on regular basis, and the SI still doesn't have the new earth dreams engine yet. In any case, the road car engines have very little relevance to F1. Honda has the potential to deliver a great F1 engine of any type, as they did on many occasions. In the 80s their turbo and naturally aspirated engines were dominant. Since 2012, Honda was building the V6 turbo engines for IndyCar.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
So why did the things go wrong for Honda in 2000s? Most car companies do not understand well how to run a Formula 1 team IMO. In the past 20 years, Renault was the only manufacturer team that managed to do well. The problem that every new engine manufacturer faces is this: how can we put our engine into a great car? In the early 2000s, the engine "seats" at all good teams were already taken, so Honda took over a whole team, as did Renault, Toyota, Jaguar, and later BMW. Another problem with this approach is that you end up having to fund the whole team, not just the engine development, while the independent teams are usually better scouts for 3rd party sponsors. In 2015, the situation will be reminiscent of the 80s when Honda just made engines and just gave them to professionals. Post-2013 is a good time for Honda to enter as McLaren has just divorced from Mercedes ownership. Still, it's entirely possible that the relationship can have a very slow start, sort of like McLaren had with Peugeot and Mercedes in the 90s.
Sometime luck plays good role to identify some thing for someone. Same things happens with McLaren but they will improve it soon.
I have no experience of American Hondas but I've tried recent Honda CR-V and Accord with 2-litre normally aspirated engines and I tell you, even the smallest 1.2 TSI 105hp from Vag feels a lot more punchy and gives a better fuel economy. But this is bit offtopic anyway, It's great to see Honda back. Their F1 engines were great between 1987-1991, but can they repeat that? I don't know...Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
I inherited an Accord Tourer from work, it had the new 2.2iCTDi lump. Very quiet, clean, powerful and frugal. Not bad for their first diesel.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
The car design is a big issue. Red Bull of course didn't come up with their car overnight or even in one year, it's a good design which has been refined again and again. Whereas the likes of McLaren who find themselves down the wrong route have to start again from scratch and you can't start from scratch and compete against a car which has had years of development behind it. Unless the rules change, hence Brawn in 2009.
I don't think a successful car _needs_ years of development. Extensive experience with what works and what not certainly helps. A team can frequently completely reverse its fortunes simply over the course of the end of year break. What worries more is the engines. An engine can't be redesigned overnight. A big part of Ferrari's collapse in the first half of 90s was the V12 engine that wasn't competitive. It took them many years to replace it. Looking at the development pace of the new turbo engines, the whole cycle from clean sheet to working engine probably has to take at least two years if not more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
McLaren will bounce back. They just need time. Just wait and see.
Time is not a luxury one is afforded in F1.........Quote:
Originally Posted by mason riley