Webber's "problems" are just a "set up" to benefit Vettel. Period.

It surprises me that people, including Webber, believes their is parity at Red Bull.

The team is built around Seb, the management defend Seb, Webber has inferior equipment or has his equipment taken off him and given to Seb but nothing changes, Webber gets funny pit calls handing the race to Seb and now Seb ignores a instruction not to overtake and NOTHING CHANGES.

Webber is the Lapdog but is too stupid to know it. I like Webber but he's there to make up the numbers and bring team points home. The sad thing is that he's in denial and if he wants a fair shot, he should get the Hell out of RBR.

I don´t for a moment belive that Mark gets inferior equipment, the team needs the WCC point badly if they shall get a new one for the fourth year (big money). But, they favour Seb in other ways no doubt, strategi and so on.

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Originally Posted by Koz

This about sums it up.



If Webber made the moves stick, I am sure RBR would be angry too.


And lets not forget, if Webber was told that in the post race interview we would hear something about not being allowed to race and how he's a number #2 driver.
Vettel can't really use that excuse, can he?

If Barrichello pulled a Brazil on Shoe, his career at Ferrari would have been over there and then. Actually, almost any driver doing that against a teammate who is in a WDC fight at the last race would have had the sack.

For some reason, the more I think of this matter the more sympathy I lose for Mark.

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Does this mean, then, that the less you think, the more empathy you will have for Webber?

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

It surprises me that people, including Webber, believes their is parity at Red Bull.

The team is built around Seb, the management defend Seb, Webber has inferior equipment or has his equipment taken off him and given to Seb but nothing changes, Webber gets funny pit calls handing the race to Seb and now Seb ignores a instruction not to overtake and NOTHING CHANGES.

Webber is the Lapdog but is too stupid to know it. I like Webber but he's there to make up the numbers and bring team points home. The sad thing is that he's in denial and if he wants a fair shot, he should get the Hell out of RBR.

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This incident had nothing to do with parity. Team orders were given to ensure both cars finished 1 and 2 on the podium, possibly with the knowledge that nobody was in a position to challenge the Red Bull cars.

Please don't try to twist this whole issue into "...he should get the hell out of RBR"

Try to get some logic and sense of relevance into this particular issue.

Also, I do resent that you refer to Webber as stupid. The guy has more ability than you could ever dream of, not to mention money in the bank. If you want to start to insult F1 drivers, then you are stooping lower than I thought anyone here could.

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Originally Posted by Koz

My thoughts on Vettel aside, I am sorry but WTF Mark Weber.

Did he not see Vettel closing in on him in his mirrors? Was he so completely ignorant of what was happening behind him?
Vettel didn't get him in one lap, was there not enough time to change his engine maps?

Everyone of us knew Webber was going to be attacked, are we so naive to think that Webber didn't know this too?

Lets get real. Regardless of team orders, Webber knew what was happening, he put up a fight and he lost.
There is no point in turning this into a "Webber was only passed because Vettel cheated".

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

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Originally Posted by Koz

Are you saying, that while Beiber was closing in on Mark, he didn't know anything about it. And didn't even change his engine more to prepare for the possibility of a fight?
And while the fight was going on, he didn't to bother to change it?

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Originally Posted by jens

Horner couldn't tell Vettel with a straight face that he as a triple WDC suddenly has to be a #2. It wasn't convincing. And probably Vettel felt it. Especially as Seb was right at the gearbox of Mark and could get a good run any time - especially in the DRS zone. It is not like there was a 5-second gap between them, so that both drivers could "calm down and cruise". „Ah, bugger it. He tells me team orders, but he isn't serious, is he?“

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Ok I don't know what race you guys where watching but the one i saw went like this:

Webber had a +5 second gap between him and seb in the 41st lap. This gap had been rising for a good while. It would've been at this stage that horner would've said something like this "ok seb, webber has got a 5 second gap on ya, well get both of ya to turn down your engines and cruise it home like this, come in for new tyres next lap, mark you the lap after".

So Seb pits with webber more than five seconds up the road and gets the softs on. so seb is now a pitstop and 5 seconds behind webber.

Webber then pits the next lap (lap 43) for a set of mediums. the pit stop goes well (about same time as Sebs stop). As webber is rejoining the race after his pit stop he catches sight of Seb about 1-2 seconds before turn 1 on lap 44. he defends valiantly as a mad man (seb) is making all kinds of rash overtaking manouvers on corners that don't usually see much over taking. after nearly half a lap webbers back off to preserve his car's position in the race and seb overtakes him.

It is clear to me that seb didn't like the team orders and seen the red mist, he would've been racing like a madman on cold tyres (he was on his outlap, this would've been extremely foolish) to make up OVER 5 SECONDS in 1 lap on webber. for this to happen webber would've had to have already been told to turn down his engine as the race was his.

webber would've never seen him coming and wouldn't have known that vettel was attacking him until seb actually did on turn 1 of lap 44. before then the last time webber seen seb in his mirrors was on lap 42, more than five seconds back down the road.

It is fairly easy to see how much Seb was in the wrong once you analyze in detail how the events unfolded, instead of guessing that "webber would've seen seb coming" and therefore it is all mark's fault. for me seb's faults in the race where:
Telling RBR control to "get mark out of the way he's too slow" when they where clearly on different strategies.
Ignoring team orders
Doing a lightning fast outlap on cold tyres after his last pitstop (this is a biggy for me).
Attacking his team mate in a dangerous manner on corners that don't usually see overtaking (at stages either of their cars where in the marbles)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

It surprises me that people, including Webber, believes their is parity at Red Bull.

The team is built around Seb, the management defend Seb, Webber has inferior equipment or has his equipment taken off him and given to Seb but nothing changes, Webber gets funny pit calls handing the race to Seb and now Seb ignores a instruction not to overtake and NOTHING CHANGES.

Webber is the Lapdog but is too stupid to know it. I like Webber but he's there to make up the numbers and bring team points home. The sad thing is that he's in denial and if he wants a fair shot, he should get the Hell out of RBR.

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I do wonder why he resigned with the team. Having Dieter's vote of confidence is as very well but Mark is far more aware of the team's dynamics than Dieter's.

All very very well being in a race and WDC winning car but there's a lot of BS that comes with it.

And the back-against-the-wall cliche applied to Webber, he completely gave up and allowed Seb to breeze by the outside of turn 4 either because of or a combination of: Webber knowing his place/Webber not turning up the wick/Webber on inferior tyre strategy.

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Originally Posted by dilbags

It is clear to me that seb didn't like the team orders and seen the red mist, he would've been racing like a madman on cold tyres (he was on his outlap, this would've been extremely foolish) to make up OVER 5 SECONDS in 1 lap on webber. for this to happen webber would've had to have already been told to turn down his engine as the race was his.

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Except that the pitstops were two laps apart and 2.5 seconds a lap on new vs old tires is pretty much the default setting on Pirelli's clown tires, especially since Vettel was o n the softer, hence faster compound.

I should have rather posted this here, interesting read, reaffirming OP ;) -

How strategy calls led to Vettel/Webber clash and Mercedes team ordersJames Allen on F1

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Originally Posted by i_max2k2

I should have rather posted this here, interesting read, reaffirming OP ;) -

How strategy calls led to Vettel/Webber clash and Mercedes team ordersJames Allen on F1

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interesting article

thanks for that

Here is an article from Red Bull's management. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spor...-1226609193375
Personally, I think too much has been made of this incident. I think that, given the circumstances, Michael would have done the same, and Senna. These guys are (were) winners, and passing is dialed into their DNA. Remember Michael's infamous attempt to pass and or ram Jacques? to win. It is like white line fever when a footballer sees the line and rather than pass to a team mate for a certain goal, they go for it themselves.
I am way, way past abusing F1 drivers who do these things. Gone are the days when I used to abuse Michael at every opportunity. They couldn't care less what I post here, so what's the point? Besides, these guys are super humans at their jobs - just enjoy what happens on the track, and if it doesn't go our way, then forgedaboudit!!!!!!!