Government is evil...

I wrote my last thesis about a decade ago and that was that. I haven't started this discussion with developing the language for a thesis in mind. ;)

I see where you are coming from. You argue that I get the recognition of my rights and liberties in return for paying my dues. I.e. I'm a contractor and government rewards me for something (loyalty, taxes, military service, etc.). In my view I initiate the contract and purchase government's services. If I do not like the quality I may send the contractor to where the sun never shines and find somebody else to do the job. That's the fundamental difference between our views.

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Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

Prove it!

They were not ill they were just bad.

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Ill people can be cured, evil people cannot. Bad people must be ill or it would destroy the leftist ideal of creating the perfect society by shaping people to their ideal. Bad people cannot be shaped to an ideal but ill people can be cured of their imperfections.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

In my view I initiate the contract and purchase government's services. If I do not like the quality I may send the contractor to where the sun never shines and find somebody else to do the job. That's the fundamental difference between our views.

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If you don't like the quality and happen to live in a democracy then the population as a whole can make a small difference by voting someone else in more in tune with what people want.

If you want a greater change then obviously revolution is in the air...

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Originally Posted by Lousada

Ill people can be cured, evil people cannot. Bad people must be ill or it would destroy the leftist ideal of creating the perfect society by shaping people to their ideal. Bad people cannot be shaped to an ideal but ill people can be cured of their imperfections.

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You seem — perhaps conveniently, in the name of your argument — to forget that ill people cannot always be cured.

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Originally Posted by Lousada

Ill people can be cured, evil people cannot. Bad people must be ill or it would destroy the leftist ideal of creating the perfect society by shaping people to their ideal. Bad people cannot be shaped to an ideal but ill people can be cured of their imperfections.

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Ill people cannot always be cured. In terms of psychiatric problems and personality disorders MOST people cannot be cured, and people with these problems form the bulk of mass-murderers etc.

Trying to understand how and why people commit these crimes is essential if any attempt is to be made to identify them before the crimes are commited. Seeking the root cause helps do this.

Simply labelling them as 'bad' might be easy for people to understand but does nothing to help solve the problem.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

If you don't like the quality and happen to live in a democracy then the population as a whole can make a small difference by voting someone else in more in tune with what people want.

If you want a greater change then obviously revolution is in the air...

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Just don't let that tumor grow too large. Then you won't need a revolution to wipe it out.

Following on from Rollo's post, who admirably tried to keep at least one thread on subject, Government is just a reflection of it's people.

Is it Evil? As Evil as society in general. You will find some great people doing their very best in Government just as you will find people motivated by greed and avarice and just as you will find those traits throughout society.

You can tinker and tailor it but ultimately Government is made up of little bits of all of us.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Following on from Rollo's post, who admirably tried to keep at least one thread on subject, Government is just a reflection of it's people.

Is it Evil? As Evil as society in general. You will find some great people doing their very best in Government just as you will find people motivated by greed and avarice just as you will find those traits throughout society.

You can tinker and tailor it but ultimately Government is made up of little bits of all of us.

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A most excellent post.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Wrong. Rights and liberties are something the humankind was born with before any government existed. People choose voluntarily to restrain their liberties by imposing law on themselves and electing the government to guard the law with the purpose of achieving order, safety and security. Government is, therefore, is not a source of liberties and rights by any means. It is sort of a banker of human liberties and rights, who vows to keep those safe and give that deposit back to people when they request it. Alas, like many banks governments do not stick to their end of the deal and choose to screw clients.

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Spot on. That is the basic philisopical view on governments that was used by the Founders of the US. I honestly don't know much about other governments so I will not speak to them. But here in the US that is the exact guiding principal used when the Constitution was written. If you study the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, they are not granting any rights to anyone. Those two documents are restraints on the Federal Government, a charter of negative liberties on the Federal Government, a limit to what they can do.

Now we all know that the US has not been, nor are we currently perfect. However, I believe that the idea that we are endowed by our Creator with the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happyness (or my prefered phrasing from the Virginia declaration of Rights, property) is true and that governments are simply mechanisims to prevent your L, L, PoH from infringing upon my L, L, PoH. Simply because we have not executed this ideal perfectly does not mean it is not true, nor that we should not continue to strive towards it.

Still waiting for Bumdell to back up his post that they were sick rather than bad.