Sir Stirling Moss retires at last

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I still think your assessment is typical of the more blinkered aspects of the 'fanboy' approach to F1 enthusiasm, sadly.

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I could say the same about your assessment of Stirling given that you don't agree with my opinion :)

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Well, I disagree with that completely. Schumacher made his own luck by working with the Ferrari engineers to develop a car that could win WDC’s. It was his ability to pay attention to all technical details and to scrupulously inspect every single aspect of the car that won him his 7 WDC’s and ensured he had a brilliant car throughout those years. That’s part of what made him better than the rest. F1 is just as much about what you do off the track as what you do on it :)

I'll admit there was some luck, a little, involved to be able to get and attract the right people around him for to develop the Ferrari as they did but it was not luck that won him the 7 WDC's. It was his hard work and skill.

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I agree here, there IS NO such thing as luck. Shumacher was fortunate, but you make your own fortune.
At time one is has the benefit, or suffers the consequences of a twist of fate, but on the whole how fortunate one is, is the result of the one's drive and determination.

Shumacher's talent may have been not really as a driver, but as a business man whose business was being sure he was in the best car, at the correct time.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

A statement typical of the generation who believe that because they are given the forum for their opinion on websites such as this, those opinions must be as valid as those whose involvement in the subject in question has run rather deeper than just watching and commenting.

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To be fair, over the decades, and this was decades ago, I heard(TV) read several times, drivers of the day saying "when was the last time he actually drove a F-1 (or has he ever driven an Indy) car?"

They were grumbling a bit that he did seem to be a bit of a legend in his own mind.

Makes one wonder, had he not crashed himself out of competition and gone on to a championship, and let's say, won Indy, what would hes ego have been like?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

A statement typical of the generation who believe that because they are given the forum for their opinion on websites such as this, those opinions must be as valid as those whose involvement in the subject in question has run rather deeper than just watching and commenting.

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Agree.

I am from this generation, but until I have driven in, attended and spoken to people involved in as many Grand Prix as Stirling has then I wont be declaring I now more about F1 than him despite almost 20 years of solid viewing.



This whole debate about the mental state of Moss, is bizzare.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

He also isn't consistent in his evaluation of him either.

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Surely opinion can change though and doesn't have to be consistent.

For example Hakkinen was extremely lucky to get his first win in Jerez 97, he didn't really earn or deserve the victory as much as a straight race win. So my opinion is he was lucky to achieve that win, however that doesn't mean my opinion is that Hakkinen was lucky to win 2 world titles.

The 98 and 99 titles were won through brilliant skill and driving against one Michael Schumacher and so my opinion of those events are not consistant.

The same as Stirling thought Schumachers win was awesome in Spain 96, he maybe felt Schumacher got a slice of luck in winning 7 titles rather than say 5.

Now I am not saying I agree, as I feel Schumi deserved and earned all of those titles through years of hard work and graft, but my point is that peoples opinions of different events and careers vary and are not always consistent.

And are valid!!

To say because he praised Schumi for Spain 96 he then can't question two world titles later is a bit foolish.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

To be fair, over the decades, and this was decades ago, I heard(TV) read several times, drivers of the day saying "when was the last time he actually drove a F-1 (or has he ever driven an Indy) car?"

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Somewhat different from some person on an internet forum believing they know better.

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Originally Posted by aki13

I am from this generation, but until I have driven in, attended and spoken to people involved in as many Grand Prix as Stirling has then I wont be declaring I now more about F1 than him despite almost 20 years of solid viewing.

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Nor me.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Somewhat different from some person on an internet forum believing they know better.

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Oh I don't believe I know better. I know I do. I've met plenty of people from the paddock and I attend quite a lot of F1 races myself. I'm lucky that way that through my karting career I made a lot of friends that are now in F1 circles, all before an accident forced me to end my racing.

Stirling Moss, as someone said above, has a big ego on him. I would love to see a driver of this generation tear into him and take him down a peg or two. Unfortunately, too many people believe he is a legend despite never even winning a title and losing to a man 18 years his senior and I doubt any driver would take that "legend" on. This infatuation that people have with him has always baffled me, honestly.

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Originally Posted by aki13

Surely opinion can change though and doesn't have to be consistent.

For example Hakkinen was extremely lucky to get his first win in Jerez 97, he didn't really earn or deserve the victory as much as a straight race win. So my opinion is he was lucky to achieve that win, however that doesn't mean my opinion is that Hakkinen was lucky to win 2 world titles.

The 98 and 99 titles were won through brilliant skill and driving against one Michael Schumacher and so my opinion of those events are not consistant.

The same as Stirling thought Schumachers win was awesome in Spain 96, he maybe felt Schumacher got a slice of luck in winning 7 titles rather than say 5.

Now I am not saying I agree, as I feel Schumi deserved and earned all of those titles through years of hard work and graft, but my point is that peoples opinions of different events and careers vary and are not always consistent.

And are valid!!

To say because he praised Schumi for Spain 96 he then can't question two world titles later is a bit foolish.

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Well, between the time that Moss rated Schumacher 4th best ever and then said he was lucky to win his World Titles, Schumacher was after 3 years off and only competed in a few grand prix.

Explain to me how his mind could have changed so much?

Why shouldn't it have? And him saying Schumacher is the 4th best and saying he was lucky is not incompatible or inconsistent at all.