Libya no fly zone

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I don't absolve them of blame. I just think that going to Libya will put them in yet another situation where they get blamed for whatever happens, whether it is their fault or not.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't think military action is desirable either and tend to think that the best option is to stay out while taking steps to try and 'assist' Gaddafi's downfall, but I don't think that foreign policy can be determined on whether those prosecuting it are 'blamed' afterwards for any failings. The way to avoid blame is to make one's foreign policy ventures successful. Easier said than done, of course, but surely the correct ambition if countries are to have foreign policies and carry them out?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

AS for this crap about Israel, the last I looked, they were not attacking anyone. If the Arab world was as worried about Muslims and Pakistan was as worried about Muslims and everyone was as worried about the Palestinians as you and Eki are, then I would buy your arguments. The fact is, the people who kill, maim, torture and mistreat Palestinians, Muslims and any other minority in the Middle East are the same people. Pakistan is a failed state with nuclear weapons and a bunch of radical tribes fighting for power. The Palestinians are treated as badly if not worse in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria by those governments at times, as any Muslim living with an Israeli passport.

Sorry, I refuse to buy into this notion that Israel is the problem in the middle east. If they were nuked happily by the Iranians (I didn't even start to point the finger at them for half the crap that is started in this part of the world, but they are guilty too) tomorrow, this wouldn't bring any peace at all. Because now the Palenstians would demand someone give them what they need to live, because for 60 years, they have been getting aid from anyone willing to give them money, and most of it ended up in Swiss Bank accounts owned by their late great leader. That however isnt' the point of this thread....

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The only point of view I will ever accept regarding the Israel/Palestine situation — and I agree this is going off topic, but you brought it up — is that which states that both sides are equally appalling to each other. Those who fall hook, line and sinker for either the Israeli or Palestinian propaganda I find deeply depressing. This is not a 'sitting on the fence' position, merely a realistic one.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

This mess in Libya is yet another case of a failed state coming apart, and it is of course, All the West's fault or conversely, all the West's problem if they don't fix it.

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Who said it was 'all the West's fault'? I don't feel the West deserves to feel any sense of responsibility. But our leaders, both in politics and business, could be more careful and responsible about with whom they do business. As one would hope we now recognise, there comes a time when close relations with characters such as the bin Ladens, Saddam Hussein and Colonel Gaddafi are rendered not just undesirable but deeply embarrassing. Surely a more long-termist approach to foreign policy is now necessary?

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Originally Posted by Hondo

If the Arab League wants a "No Fly Zone" over Libya, fine, let them put one there. They have aircraft, cash and pilots. Get 'er done, son.

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I would tend to agree. Not going to happen, though, despite the huge limitations of Libya's air arm compared with any of its near neighbours.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I would tend to agree. Not going to happen, though, despite the huge limitations of Libya's air arm compared with any of its near neighbours.

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If they aren't willing to spend their own blood and treasure on the cause, then they can shut up or hire professionals. It's their problem, their land, their culture, and they can deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Hondo

If they aren't willing to spend their own blood and treasure on the cause, then they can shut up or hire professionals. It's their problem, their land, their culture, and they can deal with it.

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Since when have you applied this view to foreign policy?

That is, and has always been my personal view on foreign policy. La La Land and Democracy isn't for everybody. I see no reason to force it upon people that can't make it work. I don't believe in "coalition governments", peacekeeping actions and silly assed UN or EU resolutions. They don't resolve anything, they merely postpone the end game. Memories fade over time and there are many more younger users of forums such as these than there are older users. People forget the amount of real fear there was of communisim, Russia, and Red China at the end of the second world war. The United States was the only nation left standing with enough breath left to stand against them on a global basis and, to the relief of the western world, did so.

I can think of no other nation in history that has acted so altruistically as the United States of America has since World War 2. We spent huge amounts of money on NATO, SEATO, and a dozen other organizations for the protection of others. What meddling it did was usually in the cause of local democracy and stability that benefited the emerging industrial nations. We seized no lands and formed no colonies. Our meddling in the Middle East has very much helped bring stability to the region and for a long time, cheap energy flowing to Europe, Japan, and the rest of the world. Over the years I have had to listen to the usual idiots scream about "it's the oil" everytime we do something in the Middle East. Sure it's the oil. But not for us. We don't control any oil in the Middle East. We don't even get a price break from Kuwait or Iraq. We are accused of propping Israel up. As Obama backs further away from the Middle East people are going to learn that we have been holding Israel back, not up. Look at how things are unraveling now overthere as people begin to sense that the US is going to avoid getting involved.

I'm tired of hearing about how everything is the fault of the US. Been tired of it for years. Fine, do it yourselves. Spend your money and blood.

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Originally Posted by Hondo

I'm tired of hearing about how everything is the fault of the US. Been tired of it for years. Fine, do it yourselves. Spend your money and blood.

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I would never say 'everything'. But some acknowlegements of failings would be good once in a while, on the part of many a government.

I would also note that most of those "failings" come with the added benefit of many years of hindsight, not what was know or believed at the time.

Just saw something on the news that really angered me. Don't know what news station it is but they seem to allow halfwits to send SMS messages in and this was one of the messages that came through.

"Their mistake was to take Gaddafi's weapons weapons. Did they really expect that a regime was just peacefully going to give up power? You don't protest with guns" from someone in Manchester

What a dickhead! Seriously, you live in a country where you don't even need to protest to have the most basic freedoms which are denied to Libyans and you're telling them how to gain democracy in their own countries? Does this halfwit moron ****tard actually think that a delusional fruitcake like Gaddafi would give up power even if every single person in Libya protested peacefull against him?

For someone to sit in their house in Manchester with all the freedoms in the world and tell Libyans that they're "doing it wrong" is insulting and indicative of the simplistic and narrow views that some people in the 1st world have towards people who have little power and no democracy.

Sorry about all the swear words but this has genuinely angered me so much.

How many people in countries occupied by tyranical forces or even perhaps slightly better countries like Britain in its colonial days gained freedom by walking out in the streets with flowers and singing about giving peace a chance and other such crap. Few people feel that military action should be taken for the sake of it, but I think most people agree that peaceful means of protest can only go so far and sometimes you've got to take military action and kill those who stand in the way freedom for the majority.

I think it is bad policy to promote democracy, and then completely absolve yourself of any interest in facilitating the dogma that you will summon, and stand on in a separate issue. France and the UK have already recognized the new provisional government. (I hope I'm not mistaken about the UK) Either, or could knock Ghadaffi into tomorrow if that is what it comes to. I believe that they are seriously reconsidering a complete alliance with the rebels because of what the aftermath may produce. Diplomacy is a realistic solution to this issue. I suspect that there will be an arrangement that will benefit the people of Libya. But if it comes down to a military conflict I don't believe either France or The UK will tell other countries that if you don't join our coalition you can't have any of the spoils of war
This is really like a hand of poker. Ghadaffi at least should be made to call a bluff.

The UK foreign secretary says they recognise states and not governments so they could officially recognise either side as the legitimate government.