The purpose of government

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Government n.
1. - The act of governing
2. - The system by which a nation, state, community or entity is governed
3. - A body pr persons governing a nation state or community
- OED 2.

The Board of a Corporation and the Executive Committee of my Football Club, are both charged with the act of governing, both operate under a system for doing so (usually spelled out by a Constitution or Memorandum of Association or equivalent), and they're both a body of persons, just like the executive of a nation.
Therefore they satisfy the very dictionary definition of a government.

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If you really want to continue to push that coroporations and your football club are governments, fine, let's go down that road. What is the purpose of a corporation? I suggest its purpose is to maximize profit (property) for its share holders. A football club's purpose is to ensure that each team competes fairly, or in other words doesn't steal another teams points (property).

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I do believe I included the words "intangible property". Did you not read this?

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Yes, I read that. But you were asking a question "whether or not you want to include intangible property in this really blows open a much broader range of issues." I was simply answering that question with a question of my own. Granted that may not be the best thing to do, but I was trying to illustrate a point.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

People and policies are things.

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Ok. But how do you control people? What is the aim of a policy?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

No it isn't.
The US Constitution is about forming "a more perfect Union", establishing Justice, insuring domestic Tranquility, providing for the common defence, promoting the general Welfare, and securing the Blessings of Liberty.

A preamble is a statement of purpose which explains what a document is for. Not once does the preamble mention anything about limiting the ability of the government nor the control of private property.

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Rollo, I honestly believe you are smarter than that. Read the entire document. Read what the writers said about what they were writing. Think about what the aims of "a more perfect Union" are. What does "providing for the common defence, promoting the general Welfare, and securing the Blessings of Liberty" do? Is not the aim of all those goals to protect the property of the citizens? Without common defence, foreign entities can come and take property. Without general welfare, the amount/value of property will inevitably decline. Without the Blessings of Liberty, you will not be free to enhance or gain more property.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

That is what I'm saying a government should be.



Why? What else should a government be involved in?

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OK, just for a laugh, here we go :)

What about Law and Order outside of your property for a start.

And lets look at civil responsibilities such as education. Should this just be for those that can afford it?

What about prisons. Should they be the responsibility of the individual.

Just for a laugh, tell us how society outside of your property should function.

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Originally Posted by skc

OK, just for a laugh, here we go :)

What about Law and Order outside of your property for a start.

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Law and Order outside of my property is still someone's property. So it would still apply. Government should protect all property equally.

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Originally Posted by skc

And lets look at civil responsibilities such as education. Should this just be for those that can afford it?

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Education can help increase the wealth of nations, so if the people decide that pooling their wealth (property) to educate their children is a good idea, go for it.

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Originally Posted by skc

What about prisons. Should they be the responsibility of the individual.

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Obviously if you are in prision it is because you have violated someone's rights. Therefore that fits squarely within the government's responsibilty of protecting property rights (punishment of violations is a way of protection).

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Originally Posted by skc

Just for a laugh, tell us how society outside of your property should function.

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It's not just about MY property. It is about ALL personal property.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

No it isn't.
The US Constitution is about forming "a more perfect Union", establishing Justice, insuring domestic Tranquility, providing for the common defence, promoting the general Welfare, and securing the Blessings of Liberty.

A preamble is a statement of purpose which explains what a document is for. Not once does the preamble mention anything about limiting the ability of the government nor the control of private property.

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fairly correct as to the orginal body....but the amendments are where one finds the limitations, and having been added in, these amendments are now a part of the constitution

I would suggest a compromise, that government is power over life, liberty and property in numerous elements, variations, and applications, be it organized, semi-organized or disorganized, democratic or dictatorship, royalty or whatever ......

be it power used to be protecting your personal property, the king's property, some blood sucking dictator's, or taking your property from you for the benefit of someone else or the government (been going in the USA since before the Revolution and continued on for the last 230 years or so--sorry Chuck), yadadadayadda----or protecting you from things that go bump in the middle of the night, keeping you in good health or not, giving a good education or not, executing you or not,...........or whatever

And one should not confuse this power as being limited to the terms of the subjective belief of the individual as to how it should be used or not used, as this seems to be Chuck's point of view (and one that I do basically agree with in terms of what a government SHOULD be doing with its powers) but if you are seeking a generic, one size fits all, what is the essence of the thing called government, it is power over life, liberty and property......

and that is the reason governments exist

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Law and Order outside of my property is still someone's property. So it would still apply. Government should protect all property equally.



Education can help increase the wealth of nations, so if the people decide that pooling their wealth (property) to educate their children is a good idea, go for it.



Obviously if you are in prision it is because you have violated someone's rights. Therefore that fits squarely within the government's responsibilty of protecting property rights (punishment of violations is a way of protection).



It's not just about MY property. It is about ALL personal property.

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So in your book, a pedophile is entitled to accesses child porn online from another country because it's nothing to do with your government because it's not your peoples property being violated. Then we have the fact that the pedo owns the computer and is on his property so can do whatever he wants and the government must protect him.

Or we have that recent murder where a jogger murdered those 2 lads because he thought he was about to be mugged. In your world, those lads could have bought the street and shot the jogger for trespass and the state would support them.

Do you mind if I don't visit your planet.

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Originally Posted by skc

So in your book, a pedophile is entitled to accesses child porn online from another country because it's nothing to do with your government because it's not your peoples property being violated. Then we have the fact that the pedo owns the computer and is on his property so can do whatever he wants and the government must protect him.

Or we have that recent murder where a jogger murdered those 2 lads because he thought he was about to be mugged. In your world, those lads could have bought the street and shot the jogger for trespass and the state would support them.

Do you mind if I don't visit your planet.

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there you go with your subjective definitions.....but that is not the essential nature.
Example, in some countries, that shooting was NOT murder, but in others it might be.....how a country chooses to implement laws is not a part of the government definition.
The what can vary all over the place....while pedos have become somewhat limited as to what they can do legally in our "modern times", there are some countries even now, and certainly in our distant past, where it was practicized openly
without any interfernce from government

Chuck the point of your thread was this:
What is the core, foundation, bed-rock, guiding purpose of government?

Nothing you have said defends your opinion.
Others have made their points far better, with far more logic.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

fairly correct as to the orginal body....but the amendments are where one finds the limitations, and having been added in, these amendments are now a part of the constitution

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The amendments have a different function.
The amendments make changes to the exsiting document but the preamble is the opening statement of the purpose of the document. Since the preamble has never been changed, then its purpose as written has also never changed. The US Constitution in 2010 is still a document which defines and limits the powers of the US Government, just as it did in 1789.