And the TIREs keep rolling down hill ......

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Originally Posted by Eki

Like I said, coercion can also occur under "normal" law. No system is perfect. "Might be" is not enough a reason to dismiss it. Innocent until proven guilty.

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Under what you call "normal" law there are protections in place.

So if a case is tried under "Sharia Law" how is society suppose to know if no duress is used?


And if the Catholic Church in Finland decided to re-institute the Inquisition and flog those convicted of heresy are you OK with that as well?

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

You're right, I use the term 'circumcision' not in the strict medical sense but in the context of 'religious' practices, though in the female variety its more cultural than religious. The surgery that you describe at length is interesting but is a sidenote and isn't terribly relevant to this particular debate except for clarifying the smallprint.

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The meaning of the word does not change, whether we are discussing a medical procedure or a cultural/religious procedure.

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Neither is there evidence that they are traumatised. One would expect there to be certain psychopathologies to be more common in Muslim and Jewish males or in any other male that was circumcised at birth. This isn't the case.

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I'm sure that our friend Roamy could find some sort of chain email that would "prove" that Muslim men are more prone to psycho-pathologies. Can we use Dr. Roamy as a reliable source? ;) :D

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You misunderstand me.

That Jewish and Muslim males should be circumcised preferably just after birth is written in stone in their religions. That girls should be circumcised is not found in any Christian or Islamic religious text at all. I do not mind Jews and Muslims circumcising their babies if its a core part of their religion, especially since circumcising males has also been shown to be beneficial in medical terms. However there is no religious or cultural defence for a barbaric act performed on young girls without their consent and it should be stamped out.

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My apologies. It's not my intention to twist your words or put you in a box. But whether the practice of genital mutilation is religious or cultural, I really don't see how that makes a difference. Why would we say that what is done under the cover of a religion is alright, but what is done within a (long established) culture is not? As for male circumcision having some sort of medical benefits, that isn't really true. The studies that I've read are inconclusive at best. In the early part of the last century, scientists and doctors had studies which showed it to be an acceptable treatment for "self abuse"... just as they produced studies which showed hysterectomies (female castration) to be an acceptable treatment for "hysteria". And there are still people who believe the studies from the 19th century, that criminal behavior can be predicted by head size and facial characteristics. Taken from a piece I just pulled up on the topic:

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The American Medical Association calls it "non-therapeutic." At no time in its 75 years has the American Academy of Pediatrics ever recommended infant circumcision.

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And anyway, Jews and Muslims certainly didn't have the ability to perform meaningful medical studies when they popularized this now antiquated practice. In the U.S., parents are now joining the 21st century and beginning to reject this needless mutilation on their newborns. Where it was once performed on the majority of newborns, it is now done on a minority and the rate continues to fall. Perhaps other countries and cultures will follow... and I mean for female and male children. It's typical of societies for people to believe things without really knowing why they believe them. We are no different.

So I go back to my bottom line once again: I do not agree with mutilating infants or young people without their consent or against their will. But as far as I'm concerned, adults can pretty well do as they please... as long as they are not harming others. They can worship that holy rock, as long as they don't hit anyone with the rock after their prayer.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

And if the Catholic Church in Finland decided to re-institute the Inquisition and flog those convicted of heresy are you OK with that as well?

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If they only flogged each other, then why not. What they do in their own bedrooms is not my business. The Catholics have weird customs I don't understand anyway, and I guess I don't have to. I myself don't expect the Spanish Inquisition any more than I expect the Sharia law.

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

As for male circumcision having some sort of medical benefits, that isn't really true. The studies that I've read are inconclusive at best. In the early part of the last century, scientists and doctors had studies which showed it to be an acceptable treatment for "self abuse"... just as they produced studies which showed hysterectomies (female castration) to be an acceptable treatment for "hysteria". And there are still people who believe the studies from the 19th century, that criminal behavior can be predicted by head size and facial characteristics. Taken from a piece I just pulled up on the topic:
And anyway, Jews and Muslims certainly didn't have the ability to perform meaningful medical studies when they popularized this now antiquated practice. In the U.S., parents are now joining the 21st century and beginning to reject this needless mutilation on their newborns. Where it was once performed on the majority of newborns, it is now done on a minority and the rate continues to fall. Perhaps other countries and cultures will follow... and I mean for female and male children. It's typical of societies for people to believe things without really knowing why they believe them. We are no different.

So I go back to my bottom line once again: I do not agree with mutilating infants or young people without their consent or against their will. But as far as I'm concerned, adults can pretty well do as they please... as long as they are not harming others. They can worship that holy rock, as long as they don't hit anyone with the rock after their prayer.

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Good points. Also lobotomy has been shown to be an effective treatment in some psychosis, but it's still not used in modern times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy

It would probably also have health benefits to surgically remove the appendix and the tonsils from every baby, just in case.

Say what you want the Muslims are a "cult" to their own. They are taking your countries and soon you will probably want to be "bailed out again" Since WW2 you have be given the opportunity to preserve the cultures of the famous
"Europe" You have failed. Look at yourselves a mere shell of the wonderful people who lived in front of you a created such wonderful countries. Portugal, Spain, Italy being overrun by immigrants who are totally ruining your culture.
In my eyes we the same as you are totally pathetic. Our children will pay the price for our irresponsible actions. One thing we can probably all agree on is there in no "shame" in this era!!

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Say what you want the Muslims are a "cult" to their own. They are taking your countries and soon you will probably want to be "bailed out again" Since WW2 you have be given the opportunity to preserve the cultures of the famous
"Europe" You have failed. Look at yourselves a mere shell of the wonderful people who lived in front of you a created such wonderful countries. Portugal, Spain, Italy being overrun by immigrants who are totally ruining your culture.
In my eyes we the same as you are totally pathetic. Our children will pay the price for our irresponsible actions. One thing we can probably all agree on is there in no "shame" in this era!!

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You really are somthing else.

Do you have a contract with the Daily Mail?

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

You really are somthing else.

Do you have a contract with the Daily Mail?

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Yea and Blair likes me too !!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11182225

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Yea and Blair likes me too !!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11182225

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Except he talks about radical Islam. You are talking about all of Islam.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Except he talks about radical Islam. You are talking about all of Islam.

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Blair is not as radical as Fousto.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Except he talks about radical Islam. You are talking about all of Islam.

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where do you think they recruit from?? the mormons? :p :