The Future after the 94th Indy 500

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

I agree with where both you and e2mtt are coming from. I used to have ideas on what should/could be done. But so much value (money) has been taken out of the series, I really don't know how they could do anything meaningful now, without also robbing a bank (or asking for a bailout) to pay for it.

Penske having problems finding a primary sponsor?! Did you ever think you'd hear of such a thing???!!! That's why it seems to me that adding in extraordinary development costs would just set the backmarkers that much farther back.

But yeah, I'd love to see something be done to spice up the show (short of All Danica, All the Time). F1 certainly did it with its new chassis and engine regs. But there are no Ross Brawns or Adrian Neweys in the IRL. :(

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Well first off, Penske not having sponsors is partially due to his staying with Marlboro for about a year or so too long....when the music stopped at that party, just about any major sponsors were tied up.

The thing is Jag, the money isn't there, but the racing is dull. If you cannot find any way to spread the field, make passing happen, make something happen, and add uncertainty into all the races, not just the ones with rain, then it is a dead issue anyhow. The only way they get back sponsor attention is if they put a better show on at every opportunity on every type of track in every market. They have the car count now to make it happen. I think they have to an extent the number of talented guys and gals behind the wheel to make for a decent series, but there is NO room for the cars to evolve as it stands now. Brian Barnhart legislated this series in to a static death spiral.

It may have to take some awkward steps to get out of it, but I think it can be done. Lets put it this way Jag, it HAS to be done. They are just treading water right now....and that is an optimistic look. Scotty and other D and G guys would say they are dead man walking. I notice they wont quit kicking the body tho.

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Originally Posted by call_me_andrew

How's that working out for IROC?

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IROC? Really? You want to compare a NASCAR side show that has spec and equally prepared cars as it's premise to Indy Car?

Really?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Good points. The thing is, if the IRL is to survive and grow again, this spec racing mentality has to go. We have all agreed on it. As you point out though, the money is the issue. I will just say this much: The spec racing formula has NOT enhanced the product on track. So for you to say opening up mods and development would favour Penske and Ganassi is one thing, but who is winning most of the races now anyhow? Same teams. See the problem? I do....the product is as dull as dish water on some circuits because the specs of the cars as they stand right now don't encourage passing, it creates a situation where no one can build up enough of a speed differential to get by. Dull product on the track is killing this series, and if the gimmicky push to pass was to really matter, I would love Honda to be giving guys an extra 100 hp for those 15 pushes. Anyone think that wouldn't change things?

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Well we all agree that the racing, i.e., the on-track product stinks. It's dull, predictable, and only two teams are competitors for wins every weekend. Road and street courses have more competition for pole position and a few more teams that can put up a fight.

However, I don't think the dull racing is due to a spec formula as much as it is due to the formula itself. GP2 is a spec series yet they manage to have more teams and drivers win.

I'm not saying that the IRL should stay a spec series, but those who advocate "opening up the rules" to "open up the competition" are spending other people's money. Right now, IRL teams cannot afford to "open up their wallets."

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Originally Posted by px400r

Well we all agree that the racing, i.e., the on-track product stinks. It's dull, predictable, and only two teams are competitors for wins every weekend. Road and street courses have more competition for pole position and a few more teams that can put up a fight.

However, I don't think the dull racing is due to a spec formula as much as it is due to the formula itself. GP2 is a spec series yet they manage to have more teams and drivers win.

I'm not saying that the IRL should stay a spec series, but those who advocate "opening up the rules" to "open up the competition" are spending other people's money. Right now, IRL teams cannot afford to "open up their wallets."

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Here is where you and I differ. You think a spec series like GP2 works. IT does work for the first few years while everyone is still learning the car and what they need to do. AFTER 7 years however, they have wrung out the last bits of speed out of this car for the most part. What is more, you say mods would favour the rich teams but who is winning now? The rich teams. What changing the car does is allow new ideas in, and not all of them cost money, and not all of them come from the top two teams. What is more, while the series is hamstrung for cash, they wont GET any more if there isn't a movement for change, and an appearance of competition. Right now....it is actually very competitive in that everyone has almost the same stuff and knows the same settings. Look closer, and it all comes down to turning and prep time and that favours the rich. Except no one is really THAT much faster than anyone else, and on some tracks....say Indy, it is a bear to get by anyone. So then Honda has to bring in PTP to help. Except, it is such a incermental extra, and used sparingly so basically, you have 15 attempts to really get by people, and even then, it is a casual pass.

The racing is dull because everyone is in the same box, with the same stuff, and even though Penske and Ganassi can tune and tweak things better, and have the better drivers, they cannot really even race each other in an entertaining fashion.

Great discussions. I have quite an essay in my head also, but I don't feel like writing it all right now.

Mark In O's points about spec chassis are spot on... everybody is even, & it takes a gigantic effort to get a very small gain. Only the very richest & best run teams will ever find that gain, and the small teams will never even accidentally have the fastest car for the weekend.

What makes Indycar even worse is the mandated spec is a dull, slow, downforce-heavy setup. (slow being relative... they are extremely fast, just slow compared to F1 & CART) To GP2's credit, their spec is rather racy, you get a lot of very close on-track action.

How much better would the show be if Indycar's current chassis spec had 100 more HP, another 100 in PTP, half the ground-effect downforce, & ran superspeedway wings everywhere?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Here is where you and I differ. You think a spec series like GP2 works. IT does work for the first few years while everyone is still learning the car and what they need to do. AFTER 7 years however, they have wrung out the last bits of speed out of this car for the most part. What is more, you say mods would favour the rich teams but who is winning now? The rich teams. What changing the car does is allow new ideas in, and not all of them cost money, and not all of them come from the top two teams. What is more, while the series is hamstrung for cash, they wont GET any more if there isn't a movement for change, and an appearance of competition. Right now....it is actually very competitive in that everyone has almost the same stuff and knows the same settings. Look closer, and it all comes down to turning and prep time and that favours the rich. Except no one is really THAT much faster than anyone else, and on some tracks....say Indy, it is a bear to get by anyone. So then Honda has to bring in PTP to help. Except, it is such a incermental extra, and used sparingly so basically, you have 15 attempts to really get by people, and even then, it is a casual pass.

The racing is dull because everyone is in the same box, with the same stuff, and even though Penske and Ganassi can tune and tweak things better, and have the better drivers, they cannot really even race each other in an entertaining fashion.

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But remember, in the time that the IRL has had its current chassis formula, F3000 became GP2, and GP2 has already had two chassis formulas, and working on a third right now. So 1 F3000, and soon to be 3 GP2 chassis: 4 in the time that the IRL has continued to hang onto these museum pieces.

In supposed "top tier" series, I'm not in favor of spec chassis either. But at the same time, you pointed it out yourself: "It does work for the first few years while everyone is still learning the car..." The GP2 formula works. There's passing. There's excitement. It tends not to be a procession, as The Danica claimed about road course racing. I'm getting ready to watch the last GP2 race on my DVR in a few minutes. I suspect that I'll see there what I seldom see in IRL races these days: drivers going balls to the wall and putting on a great show.

But like I said, I have no idea what the IRL could or should do at this point. And Penske knew for years when PM/Marlboro was going to exit. He couldn't have predicted this deep recession, but the point still remains that his is the most successful name in AOWR. Would he have had the same problem finding a primary for his NASCAR teams (minus Hornish)? I doubt it. Williams GP has already announced that it is on track to have sponsorship set for 2011. So a mid-pack F1 team, in an environment at least as bad as that here in the U.S., has already got 2011 set... but Mr. Indy Car might have to write Helio on the side of one of his cars? A successful businessman like Penske doesn't just get caught with his pants down like that.

So what's THE answer? :confused: Hey, they could try what is being suggested here: open up the rules and see what happens. I don't know for sure what the result would be. But I do know that they are running out of chances to get it right. National, local Indy 500 TV ratings take dive A 3.6 final???!!! :eek: As bad as I expected things to get years ago, I never thought I'd see the Indy 500 getting a 3.6 TV rating. Another drop like this next year, and the Indy 500 will be getting about what the Long Beach Grand Prix was getting in the 90's. If someone hasn't done it already, it is definitely time to hit the panic button.

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

But remember, in the time that the IRL has had its current chassis formula, F3000 became GP2, and GP2 has already had two chassis formulas, and working on a third right now. So 1 F3000, and soon to be 3 GP2 chassis: 4 in the time that the IRL has continued to hang onto these museum pieces.

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The Dallara's are literally museumpieces. Historic Openwheel racing has a timelimit of 10 years, and the current formula will be 10 years in 2012...

I think Dario will stay put for a couple years. Dixon won't leave, he's finished 2,1,2 in points the last 3 years. However, I do expect Graham Rahal to race a 3rd Ganassi entry. Briscoe is gone, Sam Hornish is not working in NASCAR and will be a nice replacement.

I think comparing Indycar to a development series like GP2 is not fair. If Gp2 had teams like Penske and Ganassi that spent twice as much as all the rest and hire the best, most experienced drivers, then GP2 wouldn't be as spectacular as it is now.
In GP2 you see all ride-buyers and all young, talented and slightly reckless drivers. In Indycar the race between the ridebuyer teams is just as exciting as GP2 imo. But sadly you never see that because Penske and Ganassi and Danica take 90% of the airtime and all the glory.

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Originally Posted by px400r

IROC? Really? You want to compare a NASCAR side show that has spec and equally prepared cars as it's premise to Indy Car?

Really?

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No, I want to compare a "NASCAR side show" to what you think IndyCar should be.