some strong words from randy

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Originally Posted by peasant

Fact - CART remained the dominant series till it screwed itself
Fact - tony georges insane spending was the only reason the IRL lasted longer than moments
Fact - With indy and all the cart stars and Teams - the IRL was an utter an total failure which has all but killed the gold laying goose.
Have you noticed that with some decent varied cars indycar will be conceptually CART? Not the IRL?

If you're an original fan of the IRL shouldn't you be heading over to NASCAR now? Your saviour has miserably failed thrown another tanti and run away - your americans and all ovals is long gone. Why would you stay around this series?

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CART died because it lacked identity. The IRL survived solely because of its identity, that identity tied to the greatest race on earth.

The fact remains, the IndyCar is still here. CART is gone. ChampCar is gone. Indy Indy Indy Indy.... it's all about Indy.

For me it has never been about Tony George, ovals v non ovals, turbo chargers v. normally aspirated .... It's always been about the cars and drivers that run every Memorial Day Sunday on that very special 2.5 miles of Indiana real estate. And it makes me chuckle to read your rather apoplectic response. Not sure if they teach proper English writing techniques in your first grade class but until they do, it will be very hard to take anything you write, seriously.

It's all about Indy. Nothing less nothing more. Thank you have a nice day LOL

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Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL

CART died because it lacked identity. The IRL survived solely because of its identity, that identity tied to the greatest race on earth.

The fact remains, the IndyCar is still here. CART is gone. ChampCar is gone. Indy Indy Indy Indy.... it's all about Indy.

For me it has never been about Tony George, ovals v non ovals, turbo chargers v. normally aspirated .... It's always been about the cars and drivers that run every Memorial Day Sunday on that very special 2.5 miles of Indiana real estate. And it makes me chuckle to read your rather apoplectic response. Not sure if they teach proper English writing techniques in your first grade class but until they do, it will be very hard to take anything you write, seriously.

It's all about Indy. Nothing less nothing more. Thank you have a nice day LOL

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I'll take it you've resorted to blatant personal abuse because you've lost the argument.


Edit : New site rules apparently - must not discuss

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Bye. I am gone.
Carry on with the stupid arguing over the past.
I will stick to F1 and Chit Chat.
You may not care but I suspect others besides me are fed up.
Starter already closed one thread over the constant ----- bickering.

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Easy, go easy, not go away... :D

I think it is very important to understand the past, to know why you are in the present, in order to understand where you may be headed.
You must have at least two points to draw a line. But "blaming" one person or another in an endless argument accomplishes nothing

I have never "blamed" anyone for the split in my posts, it happenned and did its damage----and one needs to understand the damage in order to repair it---if such a repair is possible.
The milk is spilt, need to know how it happened to stop it from continuing as well as to be able to answer the ultimate question: knowing if and how it can be fixed or just thrown away.

Given the current econmic situation, my thought is that this year's Indy, is a critical, outcome determinative event for its future

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Originally Posted by slorydn1

But, what we now call the Izod IndyCar Series (Nee IRL) has been sanctioned by so many different bodies over the years, and having do deal with being the "splinter" series that shattered american open wheel racing that its having an identity crisis is very understandable, in my veiw.

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bingo!!
at least on that point...it ought to be be "Indycar", not irl or anything else in the current situ

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I think if they showed up in 96 and blew up the 25-8 in thing in theory, the reality is they couldn't have reached Tony. He would have allowed the 8 fastest CART guys and the other 17 could go pound sand. The harsh reality is anyone dopey enough to create another series in the manner Tony did to "protect" the 500 wasn't a reasonable man to start with...

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The fact is that the 25-8 rule was blown up the very next year. In '97 they started 35 cars specifically because it was decided that it wouldn't be fair NOT to include the 33 fastest cars. There were 2 cars not included because they weren't in the points standings that were in the 33 fastest. So that is why I believe that if CART guys had shown up in '96 the whole thing would have blown up.

From everyone's favorite "reliable" source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_In...ng_controversy

I know I'm probably flirting with a ban here, but I just feel that the true history must be told. Plus I'm talking more about the history of the 500 not really a IRL vs CART thing. Take mercy on me Starter. :-)

Good for Randy. The next thing is actually starting to "change" the image of the series as a whole to be more acceptable, as how Randy has put it.

hind sight is always 20/20

.....and while there will always be debate on whether CART should have just shown up, or ran the US500 or a handful of other decisions like going public or blatently (maybe illegally) conducted the cash burn prior to bankruptc/sale


what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was


In the meantime...GO SARAH!...and im going to put a hundy on PT

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Again hindsight being 20/20, wouldn't it have been beter to give him a seat at the table where he would have been 1 vote out of, what 20? There his influence, for good or bad, would have been mitigated, but his ego would have been stroked and placated. But that is my point, there was enough arrogance all around (from TG and the CART board). So to only bash TG is not an accurate version of history. If you (or anyone, not singling you out Mark) want to bash TG, then be fair about it and bash ALL of them. I think that everyone can agree there were plenty of dumb decisions made to go around.



And history also has proven the the guys behind CART and ChampCar also didn't understand the dynamics of the sport, the proof is in where we are right now. Tony Geroge does not have a monopoly on arrogance nor stupidity.



Which is why, perhaps, TG should have been given a seat at the board of CART. He did have control of the most important race by FAR to the sport. Why shouldn't he have been included in the decisions? And as I said earlier, had he been 1 vote out of 20 (or whatever it was) his "stupidity" would have been minimized.

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All I can say is Tony knew he wouldn't get a seat at the table. This was all about power, and his ability to use it and run the sport. THAT I think was his goal in the end.

Were the CART board members arrogant? Perhaps...but as history has shown, what was Tony? If not for his parents, he couldn't point to one thing he did on his own that showed he was ready for primetime. CART owners often were successful in other businesses (Hello Roger Penske) and CART at that time was a money making operation and the sport was the equal of NASCAR. There was no doubt they had some right to be proud of what they had managed to build since the split from USAC.

No...There is a lot of blame to go around, but in the end, Tony did what he did. No one MADE him start the IRL, no one MADE him do the 25/8 thing for the first two years, and no on MADE him think he should make the Indy 500 the sole event on the schedule to deserve a seat at the table.

The reality is the 500 had no say in CART because their event wasn't a CART event. Why would he get a seat at the table when he didn't belong at the table. He had EVERY right to make the rules for the event anything he wanted to be, and did with his letting USAC set a different rule for stock blocks. He had EVERY right to everything that happened at that track, and if has just stuck to THAT, I would have applauded him because I think CART would have followed his rules because they needed that 500. What they could NOT do is give him what he wanted, and that was a say in what happened in Long Beach, Toronto, or anywhere else when he had no financial stake in their success; and he had no skin in the game with any of the teams at this point. If he had just created Vision racing, ran the Speedway as he saw fit, in the end he would have had a seat at the table. He instead took the family treasury and created a whole other racing entity, which as Ken/Sarah Fan pointed out:

"what is crystal clear is that the creation of a second series had diluted the sport to below niche, and its going to take time, dedication and $$$$, lots of it, to get the sport to even 1/2 way back to where it was"


In short, CART didn't react well to this interloper, because they had no real reason to either trust his motives, or believe he had a clue of what he wanted. He had no track record of achievement out side the family, and I think they naively thought Mari Hulman would reign the boy in.....It took her 15 years to do it as it turned out...

Of course the name should be changed to Indycar. The series has been about Indycars from long before Cart and and still is after the IRL moniker died.
It's simple, the "casual" fan understands what it means (which excludes anyone on this forum), and it just makes sense.

How about setting up a t-shirt stand outside the Indy Speedway and sell both IRL and Indycar shirts. I am guessing far more Indycare shirts will sell. In order to communicate with the casual fan, Indycar goes along way.