For those who think Bush is the problem...read.

While I am one of the people who think that Bush's overall impact on the world has been negative as President (invading Iraq based on 9/11, when most of the terrorists were Saudis, the "axis of evil" nonsense, creating a concentration camp in Cuba), I think Mark makes a good point about Obama's shortcomings, and that it's not as simple as it's made out to be in the media.

What I find sad is the rather immature idea that some Americans have that trying a softer approach, as Obama seems to be trying to do, is somehow being all wimpy. This isn't the school playground.

Of course, the logical progression of Obama's policy is that he mustn't show any hesitation in using controlled, effective force when the diplomacy doesn't work. The jury's still out on whether he can do this, because whenever (when, not if) it happens there will be a certain number of people who will say he's a warmonger and no different to his predecessor.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Different flag........same people.

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It's funny because you're an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Nor is it groveling face down in the dirt as Obama does.

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You should understand that you in us get what you deserve and elect, but the rest of the world, cant effect your choise, but often we pay for the consequenses of your lousy choises, in many different ways.

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Originally Posted by edv

This is an incorrect assertion. The last 2 times that I visited the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon, it was dominated by the Syrian military.

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So edv when were you last in the Bekaa Valley? Syria moved it's troops out of Lebanon quite a few years ago. In fact the time I visited the Bekka Valley (may 2008) there wasn't a Syrian military person to be seen. Didn't make it there this time, we only went to Tripoli, Byblos and Beirut.

Guess whose planes were doing low level sorties over Beirut the week before last when I was there?

Give up? Israel that is who. Why ? To continue to destabilise the region, that's why.

VP Biden goes to Israel to try and restart the peace process, what does Israel do? Announce on the very day he arrives that israel will build 1,600 new houses in East Jerusalem. Helpful? constructive? I don't think so! http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1155171.html

Obama snubbing israel? Well I say good on Obama for showing some balls in standing up to israel for once, unlike any other US president recently.

Now israel is claiming that Syria is providing Hezbollah with scuds..... Most serious observers say that scuds are the last thing Hezbollah fighters need. The people I spoke to in Beirut are sure this is a ruse being used by israel as an excuse to attack Lebanon this coming June or July.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Different flag........same people.

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I could say the same thing about you and what your hispanic ancestors did to the Aztecs and the Incas.................... different flags, same people...........

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Nor is it groveling face down in the dirt as Obama does.

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I haven't seen Obama groveling face down anywhere. If you refer to that meeting with the Japanese Emperor, then I must tell you that good manners aren't the same as groveling.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Different flag........same people.

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And with that remark, you confirm yourself to be nothing short of bonkers.

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Originally Posted by fandango

While I am one of the people who think that Bush's overall impact on the world has been negative as President (invading Iraq based on 9/11, when most of the terrorists were Saudis, the "axis of evil" nonsense, creating a concentration camp in Cuba), I think Mark makes a good point about Obama's shortcomings, and that it's not as simple as it's made out to be in the media.

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It is never that simple. I thank you for seeing where I am driving at. IN the last year of Obama, I still here people ripping Bush, and Obama, unless you are an American Republican can do no wrong. Well, the world is made up of shades of gray. Some darker and lighter than others. My link to the article at the start of the thread was interviews with people from oppressive regimes who were adament part of the reason they were alive was from Bush's pressure on their regimes and they didn't see the same sort of support from Obama

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Originally Posted by fandango

What I find sad is the rather immature idea that some Americans have that trying a softer approach, as Obama seems to be trying to do, is somehow being all wimpy. This isn't the school playground.

Of course, the logical progression of Obama's policy is that he mustn't show any hesitation in using controlled, effective force when the diplomacy doesn't work. The jury's still out on whether he can do this, because whenever (when, not if) it happens there will be a certain number of people who will say he's a warmonger and no different to his predecessor.

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Obama is trapped by his ideology and his party's radical left fringe, who he has spent more time listening to than Bill Clinton ever did. A "softer" America is pressupposing of course that Bush was too hard. Well, in many ways, he wasn't. When you are dealing with people who want to use nuclear weapons to finish the job Hitler started, being nice isn't really going to get you too far. When you are dealing with regimes who treat human rights as something they pay lip service to in the press while they confiscate property and throw people in jail for their political beliefs, why should "manners" or being "nice" come into it?

Lets face a HARSH reality. There are nation states out there that really don't CARE whether the man on the street in Birmingham or San Diego or Uppsala like them. They do what they do because dictatorial regimes are about the appearance of legitimacy while strangling any dissent in a vicious manner. So to treat these nations with respect and tact and "manners" as Obama does is kind of silly. Bush was blunt, to the point, and undiplomatic. At times, he did exacerbate things. That said, if he had stayed out of Iraq ( a big one I know to presume) tell me where he has actually made the world worse? Not guessing, not leaping to conclusions..not telling me how this is that..and it is all...opinion.

In the end, you take Iraq out of the mix, and Bush's foreign policy where he was blunt and contrary to those in Europe really did nothing but rub some limo liberals the wrong way in New York, and annoyed Europeans. Great...so he was annoying. Still don't know where that should sit in the final standing of things. The point is, the dictators and thugs who run much of the worst places a man could live knew that Bush wasn't messing around kissing their heiney. When I saw the transcrpits and excerpts of Obama's speech in Cairo to the Arab Third World, I saw a mixed message.

It isn't Bush's America. Get over it...but Obama is sending out a mixed message. Maybe in the end it will work for him, but he has spent a lot of time acting like the good cop to George's Bad Cop. That only works if in the end, both cops know what is important....and on Obama...well we really cannot be sure...

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Originally Posted by Camelopard

I could say the same thing about you and what your hispanic ancestors did to the Aztecs and the Incas.................... different flags, same people...........

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And?

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Normal diplomatic relationship is not the same as respect.

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Normal Diplomatic relations is accomplished through intimidation.