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The Polish and Czechs opposing the system probably know it would give Russia an excuse to attack them. If a war between Russia and the US/NATO started, where would Russian bombers and special forces head first? Yep, to Poland and Czech Republic to take those systems down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Who are "we"? Europeans? There is no such thing, there are Finns, Germans, Swedish etc. And by they way, we Finns have never surrendered to anybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_war
Quite right. But I wouldn't let it bother you, as offensive as such comments are, given the nature of the person making them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Its a lot more complex than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
The missile defence radars that were to be built in East Europe weren't there to defend Poland or the Czech Republic, the system wouldn't operate quickly enough to defend them. It was there to defend the US and possibly Western Europe only.
The only reason Poland and the Czech Republic signed up was because they had pro-American administrations in at the time. Signing up to missile defence and sending troops to Iraq would tie them closer to Washington who would then be keener to defend them against possible Russian aggression.
It doesn't suit them any more because they've learnt that the Americans will do whatever they want whether under Republican or Democratic leadership, and won't always remember past favours when choosing what they do in the future.
Anyway Russia can't attack anyone significant, even if its military were capable it would lose so much foreign investment and an exodus of capital it would be bankrupted instantaneously. Thats what globalisation does to you.
Precisely. This is not a risk they are willing to take, despite all the posturing. In addition, the Russian leadership has made no more than token efforts to shore up the country's arms industry, so that posturing seems increasingly empty, and certainly little for the outside world to be concerned about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Yes Spackman we were pretty smart putting Saddam down for the count but we spent too much money. The same thing we are doing in Afghanistan.
You TIREs need to get active in your Government and kick our ass out of there. I want to see Yankee go Home everywhere I watch the news. Send the message to Obama NOW !! He will listen. Get the Koreans and Japanese on board too. We need to relax and play more golf. We need 6 weeks a year holiday like you guys so we can help out Latin America with our tourist dollars.
Sounds like a plan :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
If having a missle defense system is a reason for the Russians to attack, I would start looking for the Russian Army on the border because Obama didn't pull the missles out, just changed the range on the defense system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
The Russians are going to do whatever they can without starting a war. They are going to agitate and make life ugly for Obama because somehow there is some part of the Russian mind that just loves stirring up Sh!t for the Yanks.
The Polish and Czechs were invaded by the Russians a few times before, but I cant recall the Americans ever invading these countries. mmmm I would still be more vigiliant about the Russians sorry. As a Finn, you Eki would be wise to see the Russians in the same light. They haven't changed all that much, not when the major political force in that country is a man who once ran the KGB and was a loyal member of the USSR's highest circles. A man who by the way has done much to stomp on the free press and any critics, right up to making sure certain political oppoenents end up either discredited or possibly dead. Yes...The Americans are the problem....Putin CAN be trusted? What a leap of logic THAT is.....
Obama downgrading the missles isn't the end of the world, but it is a symbol he is softer on the Russians than Bush was. THAT to me is a dangerous thing to set in the Russian mind.
In which case, a missile defence system is completely unnecessary, surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
But two things HAVE changed, and very significantly. Firstly, Russia's offensive capability now is seriously lacking, which it wasn't in the Cold War. Secondly, there is Russia's adoption — in its own way — of capitalism. As was stated earlier, this makes it unthinkable that Russia will launch any sort of military action against a NATO member, because to lose trading opportunities with the West would ruin it, to say nothing of the West's military superiority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Bush wasn't exactly 'hard' on the Russians, was he? What action, precisely, did he take against them concerning their human rights abuses, the killing of Litvinenko, and so on? I don't remember much. And what goes into the 'Russian mind' is, to a great extent, neither here nor there. They do not have the capabilities to pose a serious military threat — which is what the missile defence programme was designed to counter, let's not forget, rather than any efforts to cut oil supplies or anything of that order — nor the will to launch the sort of attacks that those missiles were intended to guard against. Putin and Medvedev may be totalitarian and deeply unpleasant, but they are not stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa