It's time to screw Russia over

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Its my understanding that South Ossetia is a breakaway region. Georgia went in to try and re-take control of this region, starting the conflict.

Russia had to react as it had its peacekeeping forces in South Ossetian under an agreement in 1992.

Even the Human Rights Watch have said that eye-witness accounts lead to Georgian fire causing much of the damage in Tskhinvali.

In this instance, Russia is only guilty of being crap at playing the media game.

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Surely there's more than meet the eye.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Surely there's more than meet the eye.

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You may be right. I'm not going to pretend I know the inside out of this story, or that I'm an expect on international issues (albeit I do take an interest).

But thats the facts laid down straight and in a simple form. On paper to me it looks like Russia is in the right, but people think they're wrong because of the bad media coverage they've had, led by the USA.

Whether Russia has an alterative motive, who knows, they probably do to be fair, but nothing will change the fact that Georgia started it by trying to take control of the region. And surely they'd have known Russia would have had to react whilst they had troops there (through an agreement Georgia accepted).

I'm sorry but where do you live PolePosition ? In what country?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Really? The G8 counts 7 countries + Russia, not 1 or 2, democratic countries that should punish violent behavior.
The IOC is not a political movement? Dream on.
As for the individual countries where Russian companies operate, well most of these countries are the Western countries, countries that are based on democracy and who's people are against the kind of action that Russia is taking at the moment.

Looking at you post I see the paralytic state of the West, people who have the power to do something but are so afraid to move one finger against those who are the arch enemies of democracy.

Tell me, what do you think we should do against Russia. And don't be afraid just because you get all your gas from the Russians!

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True 7+russia, but a few of those 7 depends on russian energy, well we see soon if they move the olympics, i say they wont do it.
Paralytic state of the west? Dont know about that, but im sure we will look after our own interest, like all the other countries will do.
I think we should use diplomacy to avoid conflicts, Im a fraid only of junkies and menthally ill people, because they are unpredictable, also I dont use gas anywhere. You seem to have big expectations about the west, some realism never hurts, at the end all countries look at their own intrest, and in Georgia there is very little to gain for the west.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

I'm sorry but where do you live PolePosition ? In what country?

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I live in the UK :) .

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Are you sure these " punishments" are enough to change their foreign policy?

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You might bet.
They are flexing their muscles and are expecting to see what we do about it. If we do nothing they'll do it again on a bigger scale. If we do something, like economical measures, they will know that we are not afraid of them.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Let's not forget that things happened after Georgia attacked Ossetia. I bet that in that separatist country a lot of people have russian citizenship. Georgia is also a former SU country and I don't rule out a possible double citizenship of some guys.
BTW, when USA invaded Grenada the major justification for the invasion was the protection of American lives but the real reasons were of course different.

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I know what happened, and it happened that Osetians were attacking villages where the majority of the inhabitants were Georgians, and did this for quite some time. This was clearly their bid to produce a military confrontation with the Georgian Militia, and it ultimately happened, and than all of a sudden the Russians were ready to jump in, what a coincidence! ;)

And I condemn any country that get's involved in military actions in another sovereign country without having a UNO decision for it.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Ioane, Ioane, I thought you know a thing or two about the elections in that part of the world. And about the candidates, too.

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That doesn't change the fact that the Russians as a whole don't do anything to change things into better.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Anyway, intersetng point of view about the drunkers, but remember that you yourself belong to a nation that is more than friendly with the glass and who usually end up their boozing with an axe in the neighbour's head or with the rape of an old lady. :laugh: .

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You see this is exactly why I left the country 8 years ago and I do not intend to go back.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Your views on art are weird ( to use an euphemism :laugh: ), but what sensiblility should I expect from a "martial " guy like you? Don't remember that I ever said that russians are the best ( as if art can be measured ), their art just appeal to my soul and a nation that could create such masterpieces can't be ignored.

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I appreciate art a lot, however I do not confound the art of a few individuals with the general lack of culture of the rest of a nation.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Lack of culture and intelligence is in fact a characteristic for the masses of a lot of civilised countries and just because you like to drink vodka it doesn't mean you're necessarily stupid. Neither whiskey nor beer would make you smarter. :laugh:

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The difference, in this case, is in the percentage of drunkards reported to the whole population.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You might bet.
They are flexing their muscles and are expecting to see what we do about it. If we do nothing they'll do it again on a bigger scale. If we do something, like economical measures, they will know that we are not afraid of them.

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It is quite worrying. There are parallels for this in history, especially where Germany made small moves to see what the world would do, and they did nothing, which left the door open for more.

Remember Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia was supposely to protect the German population there.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

You're a strange one. In previous threads you went on about the horrors of Soviet occupation. Yet now you're going on about my arrogance. Fine, I'm being arrogant! Of what consequence is this to you? Surely like Ioan you should be worried a bit more about things going back to the way they used to be? If something nasty happens I'll be off to Australia so fast, sadly you probably don't have that option so I hope your leaders aren't as ignorant of the clear and present danger as you are.

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I have the option to leave as well: I'm also a EU citizen , I also have a passport and I also saved some white money for black days. But running away is not my style, I'm "strange "and "ignorant" but not a coward.
Of course I worry about what happens, Russia was never a friendly neighbour but we've learned a bit from history about how to cope with its ambitions in the region. And the best solution is to don't transgrass on its tail if it's not the case, a lesson that Georgia should have known. Just because we have bad memories about russian occupation we try to avoid that this thing will happen again, that's why we joined NATO despite the fact that costs are huge, that's why in our foreign policy we look after the national interest and don't venture in declarations. We have our own problems related to Moldova and the separatist republic of Transnistria. Time and diplomacy will solve them but we'll never be so crazy to launch an attack, not even a verbal one against Russia.
I remember that in my ignorance I pulled the alarm signal when guys like you were happy to salute Kosovo's independence, I warned you about a lot of separatist republics from the ex-soviet space that will arise problems in the future and now you may see the results. And it was for the first time when I agreed with my leaders who took the wise decision to reject recognition.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

well we see soon if they move the olympics, i say they wont do it.

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I agree with you, they don't have the balls to do it.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Paralytic state of the west? Dont know about that, but im sure we will look after our own interest, like all the other countries will do.

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Well, Georgia is the country through which the only non-Russian oil pipe passes towards Europe. The fact that the oil pipe was damaged during this little Russian escapade should push us to look after our interests a bit more.

And BTW the other non-Russian pipeline that was planed for the near future is going to pass through Georgia too. So again, we have all the interest to keep the country free.

As you see there are plenty of motives to help Georgia only to help ourselves by becoming less dependent of the Russian Gas and Oil, still we do nothing.
I call that paralysis!

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Originally Posted by Tomi

I think we should use diplomacy to avoid conflicts,

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Sure we should. But that doesn't mean that we should kiss their backsides instead of putting some economical and social pressure on them.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

also I dont use gas anywhere.

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You don't but your country does, for sure, and it's Russian gas. ;)

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Originally Posted by Tomi

You seem to have big expectations about the west, some realism never hurts, at the end all countries look at their own intrest, and in Georgia there is very little to gain for the west.

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How wrong, see above about the pipelines that pass through Georgia.
You see this is the nice part of a discussion, it gives you informations that you didn't know. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mark

It is quite worrying. There are parallels for this in history, especially where Germany made small moves to see what the world would do, and they did nothing, which left the door open for more.

Remember Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia was supposely to protect the German population there.

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Yep, I watched a very detailed documentary movie about Hitler only a few months ago.

Things look worryingly alike.

PS: There was also the part about how they were the hosts of Olympic Games shortly before the war. Russia will have theirs in a few years too.