Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

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21st July 2007, 16:01
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

"What if" is not a legal argument.

There's me thinking I was raising "what if's" to illustrate how easy it is to come up with theories and speculation when we don't have full knowledge of the facts, and all the time I was making a legal argument :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

Again, the problem with your argument is that you seem to be forgetting that the court will judge if it is beyond reasonable doubt that Stepney is the man responsible.

In your haste to pick fault you've forgotten my final paragraph. At the moment most of what we're dealing with here is mostly speculation. Hopefully the FIA hearing, and the Stepney court case, will produce a conclusion to this whole sorry saga.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

In all legal systems, Motive and Opportunity are two of the major factors in deciding the innocence or guilt of the accused. They are currently not on Stepney's side.

Against that, and in the case of Stepney's defence, it is quite far fetched to believe that Ferrari would go to such elaborate, complicated and implausible lengths to set him up in this way.....it would have been much easier to put him on gardening leave.

Stepneys defence of claiming a 'conspiracy' against him is a very poor defence and one which the accused would have to provide evidence for whilst maintaining his integrity as a witness....something that, given his far-fetched claims so far and his on-record unhappiness regarding his position at Ferrari, is not easy to do.

All in your opinion, which may be well reasoned, but is still just one of many theories and opinions which have been aired since this story broke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinchote

The big question is whether this will really get to the bottom or it will be stopped somewhere along the way by some kind of agreement among parties, and in that case we'll never get to know what happened.

I guess a 'deal' between the parties is a possibility. Even if this saga is seen to be concluded by the FIA hearing and the Stepney case, there is always going to be doubts and suspicions about what really went on.
22nd July 2007, 00:14
icsunonove

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

Sorry, but the flaw is in your reasoning.

Tipping off the regulatory Sporting Authority is not the same as passing information to another team.

In the case of Honda, it was the former employee and not his new team who blew the whistle, so there is no issue of 'trade secrets'.

No-one is ever prosecuted for whistle-blowing if it is done through the correct channels, and much as Ron Dennis would no doubt love to be thought of as the correct channel, passing info to Mclaren is not the correct channel.

There is, therefore, no relation to the Honda fuel-tank situation and the current Stepneygate saga.

I disagree (of course), the fact is that as former employees and would have signed contracts which specifically cover the situation of company confidential information when they left the company. So even though they had left Honda the information was Honda's and not theirs to pass on. Also, it is my understanding they tipped off their new team who in turn approached the FIA, unless you have a link to show otherwise.

You might use the term whistle-blowing had they still been employed by Honda and there was nothing to be gained by them personally in contacting the FIA.
22nd July 2007, 08:57
wmcot

I think McLaren should use the "Physics" defense in this case. According to quantum physics, there is a probability (infinitesimally small, mind you) that the documents in question could make sort of a "quantum leap" from Maranello to Coughlan's desk. Of course that would mean that Coughlan was lying about the courier unless he just assumed that a courier had delivered them without actually seeing the courier. I haven't quite worked out how they became packaged for shipment yet...

Then there's the "infinite parallel universes" defense which would mean that in some universes Coughlan never received the documents at all. There would also be some universes where Bernie is generous, good-looking and tall and always looks out for the interest of the fans (especially Elvis.)...

Then perhaps a wormhole opened momentarily between Maranello and Woking..........
22nd July 2007, 08:59
wmcot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

A couple of things about this...if true then Coughlan was given info about the floor on the Ferrari. It wasn't stolen, or discovered by illegal means. It was given to him. The only thing anyone is possibly guilty of is a Ferrari employee who passed on 'trade secrets'.

I don't know about the laws in other countries, but in the USA, it is illegal to POSSESS stolen goods! It doesn't matter HOW you got them!
22nd July 2007, 10:00
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmcot

I don't know about the laws in other countries, but in the USA, it is illegal to POSSESS stolen goods! It doesn't matter HOW you got them!

Fair enough :up: So Stepney (if it was he) is guilty of sending and Coughlan is guilty of receiving?

Meanwhile, Ron Dennis has commented on the leaks that have been dripped out from the affidavit submitted by Coughlan to Ferrari:

Quote:

"First of all, probably few people really understand what the circumstances surrounding this process are. Or they certainly lack the understanding of the deeper implications of not adhering to the instructions of the court.
"The High Court ruling led ultimately to three recipients of Mike Coughlan's affidavit being told in no uncertain terms that it was privileged information, and that they would be committing a legal breach in the event of any of it being shared with third parties.
"I am quite sure the FIA understands the nature of the court order, so I can only assume the other parties who had this material have chosen to share distorted excerpts with other people.
"It is important to remember that at the end of the day it is the sworn statement of one individual in this affair, and as such, one would expect it to be the truth as he sees it. But we've not had any input in the process.
"Up until today I have not even acknowledged that Mike Coughlan is the suspended employee.
"There is a way to go through life and that is to follow the correct procedures. If other people choose to go down a different path that leads to the very damaging process where people have seen fit to spin and make derogatory remarks about the integrity of McLaren, fine. But that's not my style.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61020
23rd July 2007, 17:01
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Fair enough :up: So Stepney (if it was he) is guilty of sending and Coughlan is guilty of receiving?

Meanwhile, Ron Dennis has commented on the leaks that have been dripped out from the affidavit submitted by Coughlan to Ferrari:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61020

Ron has always been a man of principles and Im glad he has taken a moral stance over this.

interesting article in the Independant.

http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor...cle2793044.ece
23rd July 2007, 21:30
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

Ron has always been a man of principles and Im glad he has taken a moral stance over this.

Well, he suspended Coughlan as soon as Ferrari knew about the affair, but not when Coughlan got the plans. Interesting "moral" stance.
23rd July 2007, 21:43
Big Ben

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Well, he suspended Coughlan as soon as Ferrari knew about the affair, but not when Coughlan got the plans. Interesting "moral" stance.

you know for sure he knew about the documents because... you hate him?
You seem to know so much from your house... please tell us more
23rd July 2007, 22:56
andreag

Quote:

Originally Posted by eu

you know for sure he knew about the documents because... you hate him?
You seem to know so much from your house... please tell us more

I second this. And, please, with a link to back your opinion.
24th July 2007, 06:07
wmcot

Quote:

Originally Posted by eu

you know for sure he knew about the documents because... you hate him?
You seem to know so much from your house... please tell us more

I don't hate RD, in fact, I've learned to appreciate him more in the past couple of years from interviews and videos I've seen him in. I do enjoy kidding around about him, but that is only light-hearted. Saying that, I do find it really hard to believe that the first he heard of the documents was when Ferrari brought them to his attention! Do the people below him keep him that sheltered? It seems that several people knew of the documents, perhaps they fear RD so much they didn't dare approach him?

Before you accuse me of bashing RD, it's nothing personal. I suspect that any of the 11 teams that had the full documents of a competitor would be interested to see what "they know that we don't know." That's only human nature and Ron is human...really! (See what I mean about the kidding around...)

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