People Power

I now see we are running in circles - a dejavú all over again moment - middle grounds have been discussed already where a combination of capitalism and socialism - as is being practiced successfully in some parts of the world - would be a way to start combatting the gigantic social gap.

We have to get away from this "stop trying to punish the successful ones" philosophy for a more compassionate one like "Wholy crap! this is messed up and we cannot allow this to continue any longer"

I think this is a case of awareness - of having a global consciousness - which means to be aware that we are all in this together - that there is a bigger picture here that blends us all as one human family, that has us caring for others,not only for ourselves or for our country but for all of humanity as one.

Okay, I'm getting too "hippie" for some right now, I know . . . :p but I am encouraged by my 15 year old son that is now being taught present world history at school (and is now a big fan of the movie "Woodstock") and he comes to me after school and out of the blue he says: "Dad! I now understand why the hippies talked about peace and love and brotherhood of man. This world is messed up! It's full of crazy people with bombs!" of course now I have to deal with my son's impending existentialist phase where he will go through the "why is it worth living then if everything is so messed up anyway?"phase.

Teenage angst and existentialism is alive and well as it was in our times. :cool:

any way . . .

Life goes on and I for one - as you now well know - am excited about the present people power outrage.

peace dammit!!! :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Why is this (gap) inherently unfair?

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Because, as I've said, there is no justifiable reason for it. Not for the gap itself - we agree that different work attracts a different salary - but for the ever increasing gap.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

This is simply false. The free market pays for labor at the rate in which the market will support.

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The free market generates a pot of money, out of which salaries are paid. That pot is what it can support, not how or why it is divided up the way it is. The issue is not with the former, but with the latter.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

How is capping or confiscating someones wealth fair?

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Is it less fair than allowing an ever widening gap on the basis that "the free market sets salaries"?

People set salaries. Individuals. Look to them for the answers. Or could it be that it's in their own self interest to maintain the gap? In which case do we just sit back and let wealth accumulate in the hands of fewer and fewer people? Or is the aim to be among the wealthiest and damn the rest of you?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Come on Ben read my post. I asked do these people genuinly want Communism, or is there some other way? Apparently you believe that there is some other way, a middle ground as you call it. Yet I have yet to see you or anyone else explain how this "middle ground" would work.

Please enlighten me. I really do want to know what you think this "middle ground" is.

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Chuck, don't patronise me, please. I understand full well your meaning. You, by contrast, have difficulty understanding how anyone protesting against aspects of the operation of the free market could be anything other than a Communist. You will understand why I find this a bit hard to take seriously.

I would have thought also that my view has been expressed enough times to have got through to you. I am far from against the existence of a free market, and would believe this to be true of many who are protesting, but equally I do not wish for the private sector to dominate every aspect of life, nor for a world in which large corporations can get away with everything under the sun in the name of profit. As for the details of how much tax should be levied and so forth, about which you seem mildly obsessed, I am not an economist. Nor, I would hazard a guess, are you.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

I think this is a case of awareness - of having a global consciousness - which means to be aware that we are all in this together - that there is a bigger picture here that blends us all as one human family, that has us caring for others,not only for ourselves or for our country but for all of humanity as one.

Okay, I'm getting too "hippie" for some right now, I know . . .

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I wouldn't say that. It's just called being a nice person, a rapidly disappearing concept, it seems, for we are told so often that it doesn't matter if one is anything other so long as one is 'successful'.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Because, as I've said, there is no justifiable reason for it. Not for the gap itself - we agree that different work attracts a different salary - but for the ever increasing gap.

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Perhaps I'm just dense, but I don't see a problem with what others make. My income is only bound by my willingness to work for it, so if someone chooses to work harder and makes more, why does that matter to me. He is not stealing from me. Economics is not a zero sum game.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

The free market generates a pot of money, out of which salaries are paid. That pot is what it can support, not how or why it is divided up the way it is. The issue is not with the former, but with the latter.

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Economics is not a zero sum game. If person A makes x% more this year than last year, it does not mean that person B must make x% less. And besides, what business is it of your's if someone makes wild amounts of money, as long as they aren't stealing it from you? I just can't wrap my head around this type of jealousy.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Is it less fair than allowing an ever widening gap on the basis that "the free market sets salaries"?

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Yes capping or confiscating someones weath is not fair at all. How can you possibly suggest that? I have no idea what you make or what you are worth. But I guaruntee you it is many times more than what millions of people around the world make. How about we just come in and take away your money until you make the same as the poorest people in Africa. Would that be fair to you?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

People set salaries. Individuals. Look to them for the answers. Or could it be that it's in their own self interest to maintain the gap? In which case do we just sit back and let wealth accumulate in the hands of fewer and fewer people? Or is the aim to be among the wealthiest and damn the rest of you?

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Yes individuals set salaries. So if someone takes a job at a company that pays their CEO 1000000x as much as them, who's fault is that? Damn skippy it's in their own interest to maintain a gap. I'm sorry to break it to you but the sole purpose of a business is to create profit, not ensure equal results.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Chuck, don't patronise me, please. I understand full well your meaning. You, by contrast, have difficulty understanding how anyone protesting against aspects of the operation of the free market could be anything other than a Communist. You will understand why I find this a bit hard to take seriously.

I would have thought also that my view has been expressed enough times to have got through to you. I am far from against the existence of a free market, and would believe this to be true of many who are protesting, but equally I do not wish for the private sector to dominate every aspect of life, nor for a world in which large corporations can get away with everything under the sun in the name of profit. As for the details of how much tax should be levied and so forth, about which you seem mildly obsessed, I am not an economist. Nor, I would hazard a guess, are you.

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Honest question. What do you want? What do the protestors (that you support) want? To me it appears they want the "rich" to be taxed so that the "poor" can be given more stuff. Is that not the case? If not, please explain it to me. If so a) how is that not at least a mild form of Communism/socialism and b) how much do you want? How much is enough? How much should the "rich" pay? How much do you make before you are "rich"?

Yes perhaps I am playing to the extremes here, but I'm just following the logical road. The road that has been well blazed by history. You tell me that I'm going too far, that there needs to be a "middle ground". Well fine, all I'm asking is for a bit of a discription of what that "middle ground" looks like.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

...if someone chooses to work harder and makes more, why does that matter to me.

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If someone chooses to work as hard or harder than you and makes a lot less does that matter to you?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Honest question. What do you want? What do the protestors (that you support) want? To me it appears they want the "rich" to be taxed so that the "poor" can be given more stuff.

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A statement such as that betrays your obsession with consumerism. Who, apart from you, said anything about 'stuff'? This isn't what I want at all. I believe people should work for their money and be paid accordingly — I'm aware the concept of someone holding mildly left-wing views also being a hard worker is a bit alien to you, given some of your remarks about the protesters, but stay with me. But I also believe that the growing gap between richest and poorest needs to be considered. Why has it grown? Why does it need to grow? In this case, it isn't necessarily the increasing remuneration of those at the top that is the problem, but the way in which their pay increases have outstripped those lower down the scale. How is this healthy?

As for the specifics of how much people should be taxed, I don't know. An uncommon thing to say on an internet forum, I'm aware, but that part of the answer is simply beyond me, and for those better-versed in economics than I am to decide. (By the way, those people don't include your good self, unless you'd like to inform us otherwise.)

And as for your previous responses to Arrows in the post prior — well, again, they are simplistic beyond belief, with their assumption that jealousy must be at the root cause of his views. A complete cop-out of an opinion, if I may say so. Has it never crossed your mind that not everyone is afflicted by a blind respect and admiration for out-and-out wealth — that there may be some people for whom it's just not important as a personal attribute. We don't all have to genuflect towards money, you know.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

If someone chooses to work as hard or harder than you and makes a lot less does that matter to you?

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To that I must say that it's difficult to define 'hard work'. Someone may work extremely hard as a cleaner, but I wouldn't expect or wish for them to receive as much as someone working just as hard at what I would define to be a skilled job.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

To that I must say that it's difficult to define 'hard work'. Someone may work extremely hard as a cleaner, but I wouldn't expect or wish for them to receive as much as someone working just as hard at what I would define to be a skilled job.

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People should be paid according to how much value they add. A hard worker should then be paid more than a lazy worker with the same job. A skilled worker adds more value than a cleaner, so he should be paid more. Most modern day CEOs aren't paid for how much value they add to the company, but rather how much value they extract from the company to give to shareholders. That is what makes people angry.