Should f1 run coupes?

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Originally Posted by Malbec

You're right Daniel, the IoM TT is indeed held over a longer distance than the original Spa course, however I don't see how that changes my point.

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You're talking a fundamentally different event when it's held over that sort of length. There's very little you can (practically) do over a 30+ mile public circuit to eliminate as much risk as you can on a smaller circuit which can be contained inside armco with runoff areas and gravel traps. You might as well hold the Dakar in a big stadium and move the dirt around each night. Will make for a much safer event than the actual Dakar of course, but it's not the Dakar then, that's the reason why it's held in wide open spaces.

Again, if you wish to talk about the TT then there is a forum devoted to two wheel motorsport. Anyway, we're straying wildly off topic and not at all discussing how you can prevent the current breed of open wheeled cars from having accidents which make them fly. What do you actually think could be done to open wheel cars in general to lessen the risk of cars hitting each other and flying. I'm not suggesting it will never happen, but why don't we just think of ideas to make it happen less.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

You're talking a fundamentally different event when it's held over that sort of length. There's very little you can (practically) do over a 30+ mile public circuit to eliminate as much risk as you can on a smaller circuit which can be contained inside armco with runoff areas and gravel traps. You might as well hold the Dakar in a big stadium and move the dirt around each night. Will make for a much safer event than the actual Dakar of course, but it's not the Dakar then, that's the reason why it's held in wide open spaces.

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Wrong.

The reason I mentioned Spa is because it offers a very clear alternative to carrying on running a race on dangerous roads. I'm sorry that I'm going to have to spell it out for you clearly because you didn't get the comparison.

Safety on the IoM TT could be easily improved vastly overnight.

Cut the length drastically. Introduce proper safety features on whats left with gravel traps, barriers etc etc. Turn the circuit into a permanent facility with the appropriate tarmac etc etc. Do what Spa did, or the Nurburgring later.

That would change the nature of the race but then safety is more important isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Again, if you wish to talk about the TT then there is a forum devoted to two wheel motorsport. Anyway, we're straying wildly off topic and not at all discussing how you can prevent the current breed of open wheeled cars from having accidents which make them fly. What do you actually think could be done to open wheel cars in general to lessen the risk of cars hitting each other and flying. I'm not suggesting it will never happen, but why don't we just think of ideas to make it happen less.

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People have spelt out in many ways for you why the TT is VERY relevant to this debate. I'm sorry if you don't get it for whatever reason.

The TT is about people embracing a level of risk out of choice. Drivers also embrace a level of risk with open wheel racing although its less extreme than the TT. Covering up the wheels completely will change the nature of the sport as both Ben and myself illustrated a few posts above. If they don't want to accept that risk then closed wheel racing is there, or the option of not racing at all.

I don't think I can simplify things any further to assist your understanding.

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Originally Posted by Andrewmcm

I think there are crossed wires here. There are two main instances in which cars may become airborne through contact with another car. The first is interlocking wheels, where the rotation of the wheels on each car forces one to mount the other, resulting in lift off of the affected car (i.e. Kenny Brack and Ryan Briscoe). The second is where the closing rate of the car behind is so great that its chassis makes contact with the car in front, and the rearmost car is launched into the air.

I'm not overly keen on watching replays of Sunday's incident, but I'm fairly sure that Wheldon, Power and Mann were all airborne because they were effectively launched owing to their relatively high rate of closing. Bumpers around the rear wheels may not have helped much in this case. As I said above the best way to avoid mayhem like Sunday is to avoid a rules package that puts the cars in those circumstances in the first place.

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I don't get this. You don't want to watch the video (fair enough, I completely understand that, I absolutely can) but then you want to say that it wasn't the energy imparted from the spinning wheel in front that launched Dan's car?

if anyone wants to watch the crash it's quite clear what happens.

Anyway here's a link to Will Power's accident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1UrfkvAbv0

His nose touches the rear wheel of the car in front and that's it, his nose gets raised and the car is on a one way trip into the barriers. Whilst there is a speed differential, it's not really a massive one that would have launched the car like that. What launched the car was tyre on tyre or bodywork.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Wrong.

The reason I mentioned Spa is because it offers a very clear alternative to carrying on running a race on dangerous roads. I'm sorry that I'm going to have to spell it out for you clearly because you didn't get the comparison.

Safety on the IoM TT could be easily improved vastly overnight.

Cut the length drastically. Introduce proper safety features on whats left with gravel traps, barriers etc etc. Turn the circuit into a permanent facility with the appropriate tarmac etc etc. Do what Spa did, or the Nurburgring later.

That would change the nature of the race but then safety is more important isn't it?



People have spelt out in many ways for you why the TT is VERY relevant to this debate. I'm sorry if you don't get it for whatever reason.

The TT is about people embracing a level of risk out of choice. Drivers also embrace a level of risk with open wheel racing although its less extreme than the TT. Covering up the wheels completely will change the nature of the sport as both Ben and myself illustrated a few posts above. If they don't want to accept that risk then closed wheel racing is there, or the option of not racing at all.

I don't think I can simplify things any further to assist your understanding.

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If you're so passionate about the safety of the riders and spectators in the TT THEN POST IN THAT FORUM!!!!!!!

The only thing that covering the wheels up will do is help reduce the likelihood of a horrible incident like the one we saw on Sunday. If you want to see fatalities then I suggest that your place is not on a motorsport forum. Essentially you're saying "Sure, we could do something about this proble, but we don't want to because it will somehow change the character of the sport" which is completely incomprehensible.

Mark said it best with this post

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Originally Posted by Mark

I will concede the likes of a 'rear bumper' on F1 cars wouldn't be the end of the world!

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Perhaps the lack of a 'rear bumper' on the car in front WAS the end of Dan Wheldon's world :( Perhaps it wasn't, but is it not better to look at things and see whether we can make them safer rather than just saying that this is the way it is and always shall be and mindlessly sending another driver every few years onwards to his death which could have been prevented for no cost in terms of racing.

Tradition is a load of crap, traditionally Britain stole black people from Africa and sent them to the America's, traditionally women weren't allowed to vote, traditionally Asian people weren't allowed into Australia. Tradition is almost NEVER a reason to do anything especially when people are at a greater risk of harm. Give the current F1 crop of drivers a car with rear wheels which were covered up and with a bubble canopy (which is designed to counter the issues of heat, dirt, fire etc etc) then you'll happily watch it just like you watched when we went from slicks to grooved tyres and back, from wide rear wings to narrow ones, from cars with winglets to ones without. Hell we even watched throughout the ridiculous period where the cars did a whole race on one set of tyres....

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If you're so passionate about the safety of the riders and spectators in the TT THEN POST IN THAT FORUM!!!!!!!

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Calm down.

You missed the point yet again. I really can't simplify my point any further. Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you don't have the capacity to understand what I talked about.

The TT represents freedom of choice. Did you read Andrewmcm's post on that subject?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

The only thing that covering the wheels up will do is help reduce the likelihood of a horrible incident like the one we saw on Sunday. If you want to see fatalities then I suggest that your place is not on a motorsport forum. Essentially you're saying "Sure, we could do something about this proble, but we don't want to because it will somehow change the character of the sport" which is completely incomprehensible.

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Yet you yourself said that the Dakar rally could be made so much safer if it was held in a stadium although that would change the nature of the rally beyond recognition.

Why is it so important for you to uphold the nature of the Dakar rally but not open wheel racing? Are you at least intellectually capable of accepting your own double standards?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Give the current F1 crop of drivers a car with rear wheels which were covered up and with a bubble canopy (which is designed to counter the issues of heat, dirt, fire etc etc) then you'll happily watch it just like you watched when we went from slicks to grooved tyres and back, from wide rear wings to narrow ones, from cars with winglets to ones without. Hell we even watched throughout the ridiculous period where the cars did a whole race on one set of tyres....

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If covering up wheels made drivers feel free to bang wheels with each other a la BTCC it wouldn't interest me at all I'm afraid. Its the skill and finesse required to pull off an overtaking move at high speed whilst avoiding contact that I find so impressive about F1 (amongst other things).

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Calm down.

You missed the point yet again. I really can't simplify my point any further. Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you don't have the capacity to understand what I talked about.

The TT represents freedom of choice. Did you read Andrewmcm's post on that subject?

Yet you yourself said that the Dakar rally could be made so much safer if it was held in a stadium although that would change the nature of the rally beyond recognition.

Why is it so important for you to uphold the nature of the Dakar rally but not open wheel racing? Are you at least intellectually capable of accepting your own double standards?



If covering up wheels made drivers feel free to bang wheels with each other a la BTCC it wouldn't interest me at all I'm afraid. Its the skill and finesse required to pull off an overtaking move at high speed whilst avoiding contact that I find so impressive about F1 (amongst other things).

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Do you honestly think that with a rear bumper drivers would just start whacking into each other? Doing so will break your nose and put your into the pits.

I don't read Andrewmcm's post in the same way as yours. You were arguing that the TT should be cut down and he is saying that the nature of it means that you can't ensure that each corner has minimal risk. With IndyCar they have already seen fit to introduce a safety measure to counter the risk of cars being flipped like this. That's the hilarity of this thread, IndyCar see the risk and have done something about it and the FIA see the risk of flying debris and have done some tests to see how well a canopy could work.

I will wet my pants with glee if it some point, the FIA announce that F1 cars are going to get some sort of enclosure at the rear for the tyres and I'll soil myself even further if that comes along with some sort of canopy or higher windscreen.

No one wants BTCC style amateurish intentional ramming into each other but if another driver gets twatted on the helmet by debris, has another car land on his head or we have a Webber v Kovalainen incident which doesn't end nicely then I'm sure views will change. But then again no one is forcing them to do it :dozey:

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Yet you yourself said that the Dakar rally could be made so much safer if it was held in a stadium although that would change the nature of the rally beyond recognition.

Why is it so important for you to uphold the nature of the Dakar rally but not open wheel racing? Are you at least intellectually capable of accepting your own double standards?

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That you compare taking an event from being thousands of miles into the wilderness to being in a stadium, to open wheeled cars having a rear bumper on the back is rather funny.

I, like all people who like motorsport want things to stay the same, but in terms of changes, a rear bumper is hardly going to ruin the sport forever......

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Do you honestly think that with a rear bumper drivers would just start whacking into each other? Doing so will break your nose and put your into the pits.

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Ok, there's some crossed wires here. I'm not against rear bumpers but I do feel that would be a slippery slope towards covering up the wheels, if not car style then certainly kart style. Its the effect of covering up the wheels completely that I'm worried about.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I don't read Andrewmcm's post in the same way as yours. You were arguing that the TT should be cut down and he is saying that the nature of it means that you can't ensure that each corner has minimal risk.

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You misunderstood what I wrote.

You wrote that the TT had done everything it possibly could have done to increase safety. I pointed out that it clearly hadn't for the reasons I described.

Andrewmcm's post however described something completely different, something far more important.

He wrote about the nature of risk and racing and how riders and drivers chose to drive knowing the risks. This is the point you've continually avoided again and again, something you have failed to give a satisfactory answer to.

Anyway this is my last post on this topic. Daniel, the first time I read your posts was on a thread where you wanted to ban chip fryers I think, its pretty clear we'll never agree on individual rights to choose risk taking activities.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Perhaps the lack of a 'rear bumper' on the car in front WAS the end of Dan Wheldon's world :( Perhaps it wasn't, but is it not better to look at things and see whether we can make them safer rather than just saying that this is the way it is and always shall be and mindlessly sending another driver every few years onwards to his death which could have been prevented for no cost in terms of racing.

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Well, I'm a purist and wouldn't want to see bumpers in F1 cars as cars going airborne is a rare occurance.

There is sense in why its done in Indycar but it still doesn't solve the main problem since the formation of IRL - spectacle of speed via manufactured pack racing with high downforce cars rev limited cars.

In road course racing things settle down after a lap but not so on some ovals - particularly 1.5 milers.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Tradition is a load of crap..

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Stirling Moss competing in historic events wearing a tin hat and no safety belt, what a tool!

Tragedy is part of the sport. Unfortunately racing wouldn't be racing without it. I'm thankful I'm in an era where fatalities are few than in past decades. Element of danger should be part of the sport too.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Yet I'll happily go out on the moors and drive quickly knowing full well I could fall off the road and that is that. The fact that I gain 0 enjoyment out of dealing with a spider and me gaining plenty of enjoyment out of having what is a pretty sedate drive over the moors by the standards of most will tell you why I'm happy to risk it in my car.

I think there are plenty of ways to still have the thrill of oval racing yet lessen the risk. Less risk is always good IMHO.....

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We should start threads about the risk of Fiat 500s and driving in the moors, completely ignoring the risks involved! They should have much less power and speed, strong full roll cages, all wheel drive, and computer control to take over the car in the event someone exceeds 10 mph. The car would not start without properly engaging a 5 point harness, the HANS device lock out would prevent you from moving the car without wearing it, and the entire car (inside and out) would deploy air bags in the event any insects impact the windscreen!



Having said that, the premise behind returning to this thread is in my opinion, classless beyond what even this forum expects. It's a classic example of attempting to say "I told you so" that doesn't relate to this thread or F1 racing, and as usual accuses anyone with an alternate opinion of trolling and cries that a moderator should get involved.

The event that led to the death of a man has already been addressed, as proven by the fact that the prototypes did a demonstration run the day before Wheldon sadly lost his life.