No, he mentionned they've found an agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
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No, he mentionned they've found an agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
Ogier était sous contrat jusque fin 2020, comment a-t-il pu s’en dégager ?
"Effectivement, le contrat allait jusqu’à fin 2020. Il y a rupture de contrat. Dans ces cas-là, soit on va au tribunal, soit on trouve un accord à l’amiable. On a engagé des négociations et trouvé un accord avec Ogier."
Ogierは2020年の終わりまで契約を結んでいましたが、どうやってそれから脱出したのですか？Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredouye
「実際には、契約は2020年の終わりまで続いていました。契約違反があります。その場合、裁判所に行くか 、友好的な合意を見つけます。オジェと。」
Bit of karma for Citroen dropping meeke mid season leaving him high and dry now they've been dropped and left high and dry. Sorry to see a manufacturer leave but they only have themselves to blame slow development is no doubt the key to their downfall. And with no long term ambitions after 22 it's understandable that no number 1 driver would want to be associated with them
Man.Quote:
Originally Posted by wia5958
I was a Citroen fan, and I was a Meeke fan, it was perfect.
Then they fired him so I was just a Meeke fan.
Now it looks likely no more Meeke.
I said a few rallies ago that if Meeke weren't in it I'd be a Latvala fan.
Oh.
The slow development argument is BS; Ogier was leading the series until Sardinia and despite the hydraulic issue in Catalunya he shouldn’t blame the car or the team for loosing the title. He crashed in Sardinia, felt ill in Finland and got a puncture in Germany; adding his off in Sweden makes one to realize he was less regular than the previous years. The C3 wasn’t the fastest car around (especially on tarmac) but in 2017-18 Ogier wasn’t also driving the fastest car; his regularity was then the key to become champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by wia5958
Nope. As it was already told, Budar clearly said that Ogier broke the contract but a deal was reached to avoid future litigation. It’s not hard to guess that Ogier (using Toyota’s money) eventually sent a big fat divorce check to Citroen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
OK Tanak was out of contract, but in effect he left Toyota who wanted to keep him after winning two titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
Tanak joining Hyundai (with Neuville) was a big surprise and has done the WRC no favours, and has now effectively caused the loss of Citroen.
Does anyone think the WRC is now in a better position than 2019 ?
I believe that Citroen still think of pulling out before 2020 season begins, even if Ogier was still there. Rumours start before we knew that Tanak is linked to Hyundai team. They just grab the moment and occused Ogier for leaving. Budar says that simply they can't provide development so fast like Ogier wanted, but M-Sport could do that with far less budget and far less people behind. I think that they don't want to and simply politicaly end that for all.
Sorry no, listening to Budar's interview (a pretty honest guy I think) it seems pretty clear they were to going 'finish the job' in 2020.
Lappi also said how surprised he was and how many improvements have been made ready for the C3 for next year.
But there was no way they thought they could chase titles without one of the Big 3 and that's what they needed to do to justify the programme.
Turns out the WRC is not the only motorsport losing Citroen in 2020...
“new global guidelines” https://www.touringcartimes.com/2019...-tc-2000-exit/
Maybe he was making more mistakes because the car wasn't good enough and he had to push more? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I don't mean just last year from 17 development has been slow in 3 years they made it from a fast tarmac car to a middling gravel car and removed the entire tarmac performance in the process. It's hardly development is it. Aero changed little or none at all until last months of this year and will never be seen on stages engine wasn't developed as this was citroens strongest point Ogier not once can I remember said he was happy with the car. Always on the limitQuote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I guess by regularity you mean consistency. Yeah his consistency was the key to previously, but you won't win a title by being consistently slow with a shitty car. I mean, I am sure that no one would argue that Ogier can drive on tarmac and what did we see this year, do you think that he somehow forgot how to drive on tarmac?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
While you are right about aero they had at least two engine upgrades last one for Germany this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by wia5958
That could be the case if you really believe that Ogier poor results were only due to the car, while the good ones (8 podiums, including 3 wins) were just because of the driver…Quote:
Originally Posted by RaunoK
Btw, in 2 of Ogier’s 4 unsuccessful events Lappi was P2.
there was years that he had to push less (polo)Quote:
Originally Posted by RaunoK
you cant have always the best car.
but what about this theory Eddie. i have been thinking about this for a week now (after hearing Budars interview on gravel notes)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
what IF Ogier was the reason that Tänak left TGR? Budar said in the gravelnotes podcast that at around Rally Germany time it was clear Ogier didnt want to continue with them.
So, Ott heard that Ogier is having talks with Tommi joining Toyota and we know Ott doesnt want to be with him in the same team anymore, pluss the bad environment in the team.
And that weird body language from both of them (Ott and Ogier) at rally wales press conference when Tommi is talking about next season.
I maybe thrown with rocks now because i have noticed whatever Ogier does most people here defend him for that. But ill take the chance.
E: seeing now that on estonian forum one user is basically saying the same and confirming it, so im not the only one who is thinking so
why to throw rocks mate? this scenario isnt out of picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
How would that need a defence? Dosen't sound like some bad move from Ogier.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Nice theory but I don't believe for a moment Toyota could have hired both Tänak (with a new high-price contract) and Ogier (with contract-breaking money to pay)Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
However, Ogier could be the reason that Mäkinen lowered his offer for Tänak because he knew he would get Ogier if Tänak left?
yes, thats what i also meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
2 top-drivers in one team probably wasn't Mäkinen's original plan, he have been quite vocal against that and always send clear messages that top3 should be in different teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Doesn't make sense unless you get Ogier for more than one year. Otherwise it's a very shortsighted strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Or when/if Ogier actually retire, they start to chase Neuville. I have a feeling that next year there will be a lot of tension between Ott and Thierry.
Its likely we will never know the truth unless Makinen and Ogier give their sides of the story.
All we know is where we are and that Citroen are gone. And that its bad for WRC strength, bad for drivers needing seats and for having Tanak & Neuville in one super-team.
I’m pretty sure Ogier would have gone to Hyundai if Ott had stayed in Toyota
At least I wouldn’t rule it out
Our review of the Citroën C3 WRC 2017-2019 aero modifications and the evolution of the development work that led to the new aero package. Hope you like it!
https://www.wrcwings.tech/2019/11/25...wrc-2017-2019/
One can now speculate that testing the 2020 aero pack prior to Catalunya was also an attempt to convince Ogier to stay in the team…Quote:
Originally Posted by lluisva555
Btw, I’ve read somewhere that the aero pack was developed by Oreca; any truth to it?
Or just as possible, a return to M-Sport. You cant rule out anything being possible this crazy silly season.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
It seems so, AutoHEBDO.fr published it in the first lines of this articleQuote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
https://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actuali...22-207301.html
"Citroen team principal Pierre Budar says delays in introducing hybrid power and a lack of return on investment in the World Rally Championship are contributing factors in the French firm quitting the series.
As outlined in Motorsport News last week, the French firm announceditsdecisiontoleave the WRC with immediate effect. Citroen’s communication was not exactly news, but pointing to Sebastien Ogier’s move to Toyota as a key reason for the departure certainly caught the attention (see page 12).
Citroen team principal Pierre Budar admitted to MN, however, there were other contributing factors regarding both the governance and promotion
of the WRC.
Asked if the series’ inability to embrace hybrid or alternative technologies quicker and the lack of presence in key markets like India and Russia was an issue for Citroen, Budar said: “For sure, it’s part of the problem. It’s very important for a brand like Citroen to make sure the situation [in the championship] is in line with its marketing expectation.
“What you have mentioned [hybrid and key markets] is not available today on WRC, so it gives WRC some lack compared with some other disciplines.
“When you see how much we need to push for the electrification of our brand and products and the marketing we need to push these cars on sales, it’s really difficult for a brand like Citroen not to focus on this. If the sporting discipline cannot help, it’s a real problem.
“We are not very strong when we go to the CEO to explain what we could do for the marketing of the brand when we cannot give any answers on these items – which are major items today for our marketing department. It’s part of the lack of our proposal.”
The WRC will deliver a hybrid solution for 2022 – a timeframe which FIA president Jean Todt has admitted is coming too late. The FIA insisted the teams had been part of the problem in slowing down that initial hybrid timetable, when they were unable to agree on the regulations and requirements.
FIA rally director Yves Matton told MN the remaining manufacturers are offering positive feedback on the current cars and the incoming 2022 regulations.
“The manufacturers request this kind of car we have for the moment,” said Matton.
“I have some quite positive feedback for 2022. It’s what they request from the car at the top level. We ask this question on all of our meetings: how do we reduce the cost involved? We are working together to keep this at the best level possible, while maintaining the technologies they request. The feedback is that we need this kind ofcarandweneedtodothebestwe can to keep them as cost-effective as possible, but this high-level of technology comes at the cost.”
Matton confirmed there would be no cost-saving on the horizon with 2022’s new regulations.
“We never say we will cut the cost,” said Matton. “What we have to do is work to maintain the cost to the same level – it’s not possible to bring hybrid and reduce the cost. The only way to reduce the cost would be to go to an R5-based championship, but it’s not what the manufacturers want for the top-level car.”
While they’re not acceptable at the highest level of the sport, R5 category cars remain at the heart of the FIA’s plans to develop manufacturer interest in the series.
“We have the target for 2023 to have 20 manufacturer-supported cars competing regularly in the world championship,” he added. “I don’t say 20 World Rally Cars, we know that’s impossible – the maximum we ever achieved was 16 or 17. But working with the WRC 2 and WRC 3 categories for next year, this is when we start to see more cars supported by the manufacturers and we will see more interest in this next year.
“We want a pro-am championship, but if we say we go to an R5 [World Rally Car] then the manufacturers will not follow. We need to have the balance between the top cars and some cars supported by the manufacturers from the lower categories.”
In an effort to combat Citroen’s perceived lack of potential world championship-winning drivers at the top of rallying, the FIA will reveal a new initiative helping the next generation of talent into the top tier.
“I cannot say too much about this,” said Matton, “but we will be [announcing] in December. We are working at the FIA on a talent selection programme – it will be a global programme concerning rallying. As a rally tool, it’s really useful. We are working really hard for this and again, to bri new talents, this is one of the reasons we make the changes to the WRC and WRC 3 layers Matton pointed out that sev drivers were capable of winn WRC rounds, but accepted th title contenders remained Ot Tanak, Thierry Neuville and Sebastien Ogier.
In his time with Citroen, Matton managed Citroen’s own junior team and he said the lack of such manufacture programmes was telling.
“Maybe in the last two or th years – since the launch of the new World Rally Cars – we mi something,” he said. “Maybe did not anticipate the gap betw R5 cars and World Rally Cars now the tools will be in place t have a quite proper pyramid. As well, we need to make sure the manufacturers really understand how important it to have junior teams. Citroen was one of the main provider [of drivers]. When you see [Kr Meeke, [Dani] Sordo, Ogier, Neuville, [Sebastien] Loeb, al these drivers were involved in Citroen junior programme an now some other manufacture can understand the value of t to the championship.”
WRC Promoter was contact regarding the costs involved i competing in the WRC and on Citroen’s departure, but it declined to comment.
Customer Citroens might appear in the 2020 WRC line-up, says Budar
Citroen’s 2020-specification C3 WRC – a car Pierre Budar is convinced is capable of lifting the world title – could still be seen next year.
Budar admitted the Versailles- based Citroen Racing operation was open to offers for the cars, which are developed and ready
to go with homologated updates for next season. The C3 WRC has undergone significant testing and development over the second half of the current year with progress targeted for next season.
PIERRE BUDAR
What went wrong for Citroen this season?
“We have faced the situation where we had lost a lot of development at the beginning
of the year. We have been rushed. It was difficult to recover the time we had [lost] at the beginning of the year because we had new drivers, new engineers and they had to understand the car. They had to learn how to work together and make development the priority. All of this needed time at the start of the season and, of course, this time give us some late advancement compared to the other teams and we have not been able to recover this.”
But you made good progress?
“I am quite sure we have made a lot of progress during the year and we had a lot of ongoing
Budar said: “I am quite convinced we would have started the season in a much better position than
this year.
“If we will see the car next season, I don’t know. The situation is still quite new, but if somebody is interested to rent or buy the cars, then I am open.”
Asked how confident he was the car could challenge for a title in 2020, he added: “I am quite convinced of
it. The progress we could see during the latest development tests. A better understanding and experience of
the team – [for the] race and data development that would have been ready for Monte Carlo, but this is the problem – from Seb’s point of view it would have been better to have it before and we can agree with this, but it cannot be possible. You cannot contract the time when you need to do some new development, some new tooling or new moulds, you cannot get the time back – especially with the homologation system, which is strict. With the homologation system you cannot make a mistake.”
When did you first realise Ogier was thinking about leaving?
“We had some first discussion with Seb after the summer. Of course, his concern was started after Germany.”
That was a difficult engineers on the car; they were quite new at the beginning of this season and now they have one more season [of experience]. Altogether
I am sure we would have been more in the fight next season.”
Those sentiments are shared by Esapekka Lappi. The Finn, who completed some of the development work along with Eric Camilli, said: “I think we could have done quite big steps. Obviously you saw the aero update which was working very well – for sure it would have helped a lot on the fast stages and fast rallies. event, especially given his statements to the press at the time...
“Yes. I confirm.”
When did you find out Citroen would not continue into theWRC’s hybrid era in 2022?
“We had several scenarios pondering for a while and it has been decided to relaunch Peugeot in World Endurance Championship. We have already DS involved in Formula E and we couldn’t get a third programme and have a good level of performance with three main programmes from the same organisation. So, when the decision has been made for Peugeot somewhere [in PSA], the decision has been made for Citroen not to be involved in the hybrid WRC in 2022.”
The change and the difference in time was quite big from the old aero. And then we had some performance- related updates: new engine, new geometry with some steering updates and some other things for the diffs. We were working on it.
“Like we saw when I got the diffs I wanted [this season] it all clicked on gravel. There was a lot of work on Tarmac to be done, but I was positive we had a big improvement for next year. Maybe they wouldn’t have answered all the challenges we face this year, but at least some of them.”
Was there ever a chance, in your opinion, Peugeot, for example, could run in WRC instead of WEC?
“[That] could have been a scenario also. But it has been decided to go for WEC because this programme was more online with expectation on Peugeot’s side. I don’t want to comment
on this choice by Peugeot – I’m not in a position to do so.”
Do we really need any more third world countries now like Russia and India?
There always seems to be some problem with them.
I really can't see why manufacturers would be interested in hybrid only running on road section, i can't see how they can find any real development to use in road from this solution, unlike F1 where you have both MGU-K and MGU-H
It's like 20 times bigger market than Norway, of course everyone is tempted to sell there in big volumesQuote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Hyundai are kings in Russia, Ford in America, the rest of the world is held By Toyota, 😂
This is from last week's Motorsport News. Budar has said all along that the cars will be available to rent or to buy. However, this doesn't mean someone has the money for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Besides, I hate it when people post quotes like that without sources. That twitter account even copies my tweets sometimes (not retweeting) or copies my posts from this forum (like this post and this tweet)