and why those top privateers never shined on the stages then ???Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
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and why those top privateers never shined on the stages then ???Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Sir, my comments were about driving I saw on stages not about result table. Slow car doesn't make You braking earlier than others, going off the throttle before crests etc. I don't have information to judge the level of car but I can judge what I see on stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
And you saw the best rally that Armindo made this year, by a kind of mistake with the car set-up. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Now you can imagine the other rallyes where he was even slower...
Forget Armindo, look at Campana and Flodin. Campana improved a lot when used a Prodrive Mini, but in a different rally. Flodin was faster when driving the S2000 Mini than the WRC, and with the WRC was very slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Good question. But as this this topic is spoiled, you have to question Cali because the guy seem to have all the answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
MIMI are registering in the IRC so maybe MEEK will be active again.Sordo and del Barrio granted waiver to score IRC points in Corsica - News - IRC Intercontinental Rally Challenge - Eurosport
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
I'm a bit suprised on the discussion - historically it's a fact that factory car usually quicker than privat and real factory driver usually better than privat based on more testing more experience etc.
The Mini story a bit specific and unic and by logic there is no reason for Prodrive to limit MI cars (no fear that Armindo beat Sordo) - even more if they let run latest developments it's a good test etc.
Prodrive will not run anything different than WRC this year. IRC, ERC and national championships are given to "partner" companies like Drive-Pro. Meek will drive only if somebody cover his costs and agree with Prodrive to lend him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red bull
Totally agree with you. But the facts are on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by amilk
But more interesting: Why two private Minis JCW WRC were faster when were with the S2000 specs? It's strange that was a driver's problem... two drivers problem?
for the same reason Villagra was very fast in a Group N car and a nobody in a WRC...Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
A WRC is a different animal, and not everyone is man enough to handle them.
It's in driver, not in machine.
You have to show were you saw Villagra being fast in WRC rallyes with a Group N. His homeland don't count to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Yes it is, with more 20 or 30HP, a biguer wing and differente front brakes. A very differente animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Campana is the man that was hable to handle it. But only with a unit from Prodrive. :D
why villagras homeland doesn't count.... yet you count campanas homeland results ????Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
as for the difference between WRC and s2000... Ogier is very close with mikkelsen in the s2000...you think mikkelsen would be able to win events in a WRC ?? Those brakes, wings, flywheels and the 20-30 bhp separate the men from the scared dogs... guess where your driver belongs.
And the question remains why Armindo settles for a crap car ?? apart from being a tourist with no skills, he also doesn't have any self esteem as well ???
Campana realy great today in Corsica- without Mini WRC, so maybe on Monte not only the car was quick. What I saw there - agree with Mirek some post before, the car handling was different also.
Oh dear...and even you N.O.T. are trying to argue with these parallel universe sick dogs. And oh yes. I do have all the answers, Bubbaontour has answered enough, but some babies are still crying ;)
If you can't understand naturally the difference, wouldn't understand any explanation wathever it would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Because doing WRC events on a crap car, is much better than be on a forum writing, or be on the side of the road seing others running. And there's always a hope that one of these days Mini open the eyes and demand a decent car.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
If your best answer is call me "sick dog", then i understand why you think this discussion is spoiled. You can't start better discussion on this thread than mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
This discussion should have ended a long time ago...no facts, just opinions. Nuff said.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
It is always nice to argue with yes men... i am immune to their logic because 90% of Greek rally fans are yes men supporting their drivers because of the flag colour no matter how useless they are.
Seems the mentality is the same everywhere... there is always someone else who is responsible for their misery and never themselves.
Armindo is a tourist nothing more nothing less... what he can achieve more even with a car that is up to prodrive standards ? Nothing... a few more seconds and maybe if the s2000 guys sleep he might be able to pass them in 1 or 2 stages...
Of course private cars are downgraded and they have to be... that is how you separate the wheat from the chaff... the sick doggys should not be allowed to play with the real men...if you want something you have to earn it, not given to you.
:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
And how do we seperate the "real men" from the "sick dogs" as you put it, if we dont let the best drivers from the "ladycup" classes in WRC cars? Like you say yourself, the WRC car is a different animal altogethor ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
They have to prove themselves in the ladycups first... what is so hard to grasp ??Quote:
Originally Posted by tfp
Armindo won the PWRC class when it was actually a tourist assembly... he got his chance in the WRC...he proved he is a tourists himself... now he must not ask for anything more than the proper tourist treatment.
Oooh but they did ... frequently. But you must also understand that the top drivers generally gravitated to the manufacturer teams who also had more resource.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
can you name some ??Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
It is normal the best drivers to be selected and offered the best equipment... it is what happens in every day life as well....
There's a good solution to your problem: Don't open this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Forget Armindo.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
If the private Minis up to Prodrive standars are what we see at Grifone and Motorsport Itália, them is obvious the reason why Prodrive can't sell WRC cars. :D
And now they are trying IRC...
Ah, i was forgetting this: Did you remember Sordo in the Grifone's Mini at Monza Rally Show 2011? More than 1min to Loeb? Staying behing Rinaldo Capelo and Valentino Rossi? Huu? :D
I do not have anything to discuss with people taking Monza rally show seriously.....
I am not here to defend prodrive...i could not care less if they fold and take the Mini project with them, which is a dead horse as long as there is not proper support from BMW.
i took part in the whole armindo circus because i find it ridicoulous when someone is asking for better equipment when he is doing a very poor job... first you have to prove that you are worthy at what you do then voice any objections...that is how things work, and should work.
Let's resumeQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Campana is fast, but in France 11 didn't count;
Flodin was fast in Sardinia, but in France didn't count;
Sordo is he fastest guy in a Mini, but in Monza didn't count...
... you talked about seriousness?!? Wowww :D
Can you, at least, show to us a fast private Mini WRC? Only one.
Campana is not fast outside his back yard...
Flodin is fast in ladycup competitions...like many others
Monza is a show...
Can you show me a fast private car when it is driven by a tourist ??
Except if drives a private Mini. With this car, not even in his back yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Yes it is, but not for the first ones on the time table. Did you asked to Sordo if it was show?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
No, because if i'll show it, you will say that doesn't count. So, is useless. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Actually M.Rantanen was faster than both Sordo and Meeke in Finland SS1. Then he crashed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
when did campana drove a private mini and when a works one ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
Monza is a show...there is nothing that can be taken seriously...it is like considering the race of champions a true competition...drivers participate and have their head on having a good time and entertain the crowds...
please try me and show me a PRIVATE car driven by a TOURIST that is fast...
Yes, and with the Grifone's Mini. But it was one stage only...Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
At the office at the moment but just off the top of my head - Russell Brooks, Andy Dawson, in fact anyone who drove an RS1800 who wasn't in the factory team, (in '79 RNZ Mikkola & Robson were in Masport cars whilst Vatenan had the Boreham car), anyone who sat in a David Sutton car, Chequered Flag Stratos (Waldegaard) , Stig Blomqvist wasn't in the factory team when he first entered a Quattro in Sweden, which brings to mind Per Eklund, Mats Jonsson, Gronholm & Martin both had full spec Corollas, who was the Greek that drove the 037 (appliance of science)?, etc, etc, etc ... I could go on but I haven't time.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
It is only recently that the ultimate performing cars have been limited to the one or two drivers sitting in the factory seat, whether by manufacturer choice or by regulation.
That is correct.Quote:
It is normal the best drivers to be selected and offered the best equipment... it is what happens in every day life as well....
In his back yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Ahhhh you remember thousands of private cars that are fast, and decided to include "TOURIST" on the second version of the question. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
You are good in rhetoric.
Did you really asked to Sordo and Loeb about Monza? Hum?
Just thought of a few more for you NOT... Malcolm Wilson (Ford & Audi), Buffum (TR8 & Audi), Marc Duez (Porsche & BMW?), Bettega (Fiat 131), Mouton (Fiat 131), Millen (Mazda323), Sainz (Sierra), Loubet, Auriol, Del Zoppo, Recalde, Airikala (Lancia Integrale).
of course i will include the word tourist because that is my point.... It is not the car that is THAT crap (for sure it is downgraded) it is the driver that makes it look crap...Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
yes, everyone started in a private car, nobody was born inside a car manufacturer...Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
the guys you mention had notable results, but so did the drivers of today with private cars (Solberg, Latvala, Hirvonen, Novikov, ostberg ects) the question is did anyone ever win constantly in a private car or was able to challenge constantly in them back in the 70s 80s ??
the thing is private cars were always a bit downgraded...it is not just a todays phenomenon.
I am sure it's not a positive way. It suits the current Manufacturers that the cars cost so much......and as long as this remains, the sport is going nowhere. As Nicky Grist said in his interview the other night, the sport needs a re-write. Whether that is with the current Manufacturers is another matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Private cars are a litle bit downgraded, it's normal. What is not normal, is the private cars be always much slower, even when are driven by the works driver in an event like Monza RallyShow.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
And it's not normal that the same car in private hands is faster with S2000 configuration than with WRC configuration.
You can use the tourist bull****t in you rethoric about all the drivers, but the facts above are simple and obvious.
Actually there are a number of factors at play there - a driver who feels 100% comfortable in a slower car may easily go faster than the beefier wrc configuration if he doesn't have that same confidence. Also when you look at s2000 config there is the ability to make time up in other ways - but then again easier to just say faster car but he's slower all prodrive's faultQuote:
Originally Posted by JAM
One of the main problem is the business model. This business works if the manufacturer controls everything, or by other words, if he can do money in everything. If we has to sell only part of the package to the privateers, then the car is crap. That's why almost all the private drivers run with second manufacturers team.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
The manufacturers don't let private teams grow, they want to earn all the possible cent on thgis business. In the last 4 years we had only two exceptions.
And we have another problem: Technology. We can't stop the R&D, but there's enough money to pay it? It's not a WRC problem, is a motorsport problem.