Team orders at Ferrari

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Originally Posted by wedge

It was implied and never explicit instructions.

Unless there is great proof there's a great difference when Massa is asked/forced to pull over and being informed that your team mate is quicker.

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Dude, you might have had a great argument, indeed, even a winning argument, but for Ferrari blowing the bottom out of your boat.

As one old lawyer once said, when your client has a solid case, try to keep them from inflicting irreparable damage upon themselves.......

or the same rule applies in legal disputes and orgies: be sure the person you are "having sex with" is not yourself

First ground establishing quilt as a matter of law (ie, beyond any factual dispute):
Ferrari contested the stewards hearing and argued no team orders. Stewards disagreed and hit them with the max fine.
No appeal taken.
In a court of law, that is what is known as res judicata, and a party who fails to appeal, is stuck with the finding (in this case that they cheated) and can no longer argue to the contrary; they are stuck with the label as a matter of law.
This was not a plea bargain or a settlement where a party pays without admitting fault. Too late for that. :rolleyes:

Second ground as a matter of law (ie beyond dispute):

Luca's own website establishes guilt, yet again. And makes it sound as though Luca is proud to do it in your face

Duh...... :rolleyes:

Third ground:
The radio transmission before and right after the pass....esp. the "good boy"


well double duh..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
while number three might arguably be gotten around with some fine lawyer work........the other two are fatal.

reminds me of a young nurse telling me how she hated doctors, because she never got over what happened on her first night of training in an Emergency room. A patient was wheeled in, and the doc took one look and said "mark him down as another Dead on arrival......NEXT"

She blurted out, "are you not even going to try to help him or even look at him?"

He responded, "well sweetie pie (and some other stuff) if you will find where they left his head and bring it to me, I will sew it back on....." :dozey:

She then acquired the nickname of "sew-it-back" among many of her profession, including docs

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I simply prefer that racing be racing. I don't and have never liked team orders, but when they were legal they were legal and I accepted that. I think in a situation two drivers on the same team are racing, they should both respect the teams investment and do the best they can to not trash the cars. But at the end of the day I want the best driver/car combo to win the race.

If we are going to allow team orders, blatant or otherwise, then maybe we should just make F1 time trials. That way the fastest car wins. Or they could allow team orders again and remove the WDC from the equation. If it's a team effort, why call it an individual title?

I'm more than aware of the difficulty in passing in F1, but also aware of why I like seeing racing, and not rigged spectacles that insult the viewers with such blatant cheating.

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great post

and this year and in the past passing is possible if you have the gumption to do it like Hamilton and Alonso of old. But this new Alonso seems to have fallen into a much worse entitlement state of mind than MSC ever had in his hey day. At the end of the day MSC did his damage on the track and if he had issues never really took it to the public quite the way Alonso does.

Race victories should be earned and not given. I never liked team orders and never will. I can see the need to support your teammate win the WDC in the closing few GP's when you are out of the wdc fight. that would only be natural. But outright theft of a gP and then get on the podium and prance around like you earned it is pathetic. Especially when you were on the radio cryin to the team to let you win without having to fight. Then later or talking about "team" this and "team" that. It is sad to see such a talented driver sink so low in morality and attitude.

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Originally Posted by wedge

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/8864978.stm Originally Posted by
The words "Fernando is faster than you" are sure to pass into Formula 1 legend, but I heard them from Ferrari around 20 laps before the infamous radio communication was given.

Immediately after the pit stops, I went into the Ferrari garage. The team's spokesman Luca Colajanni was talking to my colleague from RAI, Italy's main TV network. This is quite a common occurrence: Ferrari listen to RAI commentary during the race and there is always communication between team and broadcaster.

Once finished in Italian, I asked what the team were saying to the drivers and what the situation was. At that time, Felipe Massa was just starting to pull away from Fernando Alonso.

Colajanni said the race was progressing as normal, that the cars were running well, but then added "but as you can see, Fernando is faster".

This had been the case all weekend, as Alonso explained in the highly-charged post race press conference. Ferrari were only too well aware of this fact.

I went back to the McLaren garage next door to check on their progress, but could see quite a discussion taking place on the Ferrari pit wall. Team principal Stefano Domenicali was busy talking to chief engineer Chris Dyer. At one point, I saw Dyer put his hand up, with a flat palm. It was the kind of gesture policemen use to stop traffic.

Soon after, Massa pulled out a three-second gap on Alonso. The discussions continued. Massa's race engineer Rob Smedley was on the radio to Felipe every lap. At one point we heard him telling Felipe to concentrate. "The gap is three seconds, keep this going, and you can win", assured Smedley.

But Alonso closed the gap and the rest is history. There were more discussions between Domenicali, Dyer, Smedley and Alonso's engineer Andrea Stella during the five or so laps before lap 48, but once the move was made, all discussions stopped

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:s ailor: I think there is one facet of Ferrari's strategy that is either being ignored or posters are so set on crucifying Fred that it just hasn't occurred to them.
Ferrari (especially Fred) are perilously short on their engine allotment . You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. Ferrari knows they cannot risk running in hot dirty air amongst themselves,(most likely why Fred kept dropping his interval back, only to reel Felipe in with ease) and they know Fred is their best hope for a WDC. After the pass the only radio transmission I heard to Fred was: "take it easy on your engine you need it next race" This is a monumental problem that Ferrari got themselves into early in the season. I think it played heavily into the strategy of this race. But by all means... :s ailor: "bash on"

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Originally Posted by Tazio

:s ailor: I think there is one facet of Ferrari's strategy that is either being ignored or posters are so set on crucifying Fred that it just hasn't occurred to them.
Ferrari (especially Fred) are perilously short on their engine allotment . You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. Ferrari knows they cannot risk running in hot dirty air amongst themselves, and they know Fred is their best hope for a WDC. After the pass the only radio transmission I heard to Fred was: "take it easy on your engine you need it next race" This is a monumental problem that Ferrari got themselves into early in the season. I think it played heavily into the strategy of this race. But by all means... :s ailor: "bash on"

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but that should not be an excuse to cheat.
all teams have the same engine allotments and it up to them to manage it accordingly. What you are effectively advocating is for them to break the rules in order to manage their own shortcomings.

I'm not a fan of team orders, but I understand them. Each day I walk into my job and I am handed team orders. They're not always fair, but I have the option to quit if I don't agree with them.

Additionally, most popular sports have team orders. A player who doesn't accept them will find himself on the bench or traded to another team that can deal with the problem.

Perhaps we have put F1 on a high pedestal, thinking that it is a "pure" sport in order to take us away from our real worlds every two weeks. Now the pedestal is cracking again. Each time we are frustrated by team orders being employed, another crack appears. For years, we have tried to patch over the cracks, but they still exist beneath the smooth surface we have tried to put on the pedestal. The 2002 ban was just another patch. We can disguise them, but they are still there. They always have been. They always will be.

F1 is not a "pure" sport, but a team sport and a business. As such, there will always be team orders of one kind or another no matter how much we deny they exist.

If you insist on following a sport without team orders, may I suggest golf or tennis...not doubles, of course! ;)

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Originally Posted by truefan72

but that should not be an excuse to cheat.
all teams have the same engine allotments and it up to them to manage it accordingly. What you are effectively advocating is for them to break the rules in order to manage their own shortcomings .

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Originally Posted by tazio

:s ailor: You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. .

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:s ailor: I'm not advocating anything. I'm simply stating my opinion! An opinion the team may have made in it's own best interest. Not something Fred forced on them. Let's wait and see what the wmsc has to say about it!

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Originally Posted by truefan72

great post

and this year and in the past passing is possible if you have the gumption to do it like Hamilton and Alonso of old. But this new Alonso seems to have fallen into a much worse entitlement state of mind than MSC ever had in his hey day. At the end of the day MSC did his damage on the track and if he had issues never really took it to the public quite the way Alonso does.

Race victories should be earned and not given. I never liked team orders and never will. I can see the need to support your teammate win the WDC in the closing few GP's when you are out of the wdc fight. that would only be natural. But outright theft of a gP and then get on the podium and prance around like you earned it is pathetic. Especially when you were on the radio cryin to the team to let you win without having to fight. Then later or talking about "team" this and "team" that. It is sad to see such a talented driver sink so low in morality and attitude.

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It's all relative actually. The end of the championship is closer for those with less points if you think about it.

Most people are actually outraged not by the team orders but by the fact that it was too obvious and at the same time have a problem with the fact they behaved normally after the race. What should they do? Be ashamed? It was the best result for the team... well... perhaps except Massa but who's fault is that he woke up so late... I'm not even sure he actually has waken up yet... I haven't seen the race but from what I've read Vettel gave him quite a bit of help. It would have been a great mistake not to swap places and obvious or not no team order was issued... the BS they've used is just as good as anyone's.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Facts?

The fact is that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for violating Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations. Stefano isn't going to appeal that decision. What facts are present that show that Fernando made an actual pass under normal racing conditions? None that I can find.


As for biases, I've considered myself borderline Tifosi for years, but not blinded due to the fact that I want to see at least half the field in strong competitive cars. I'd really rather see Kubica somehow bring the Renault past the field and win than anyone else this year, simply because I think all of the top teams have been idiots.

I simply prefer that racing be racing. I don't and have never liked team orders, but when they were legal they were legal and I accepted that. I think in a situation two drivers on the same team are racing, they should both respect the teams investment and do the best they can to not trash the cars. But at the end of the day I want the best driver/car combo to win the race.

If we are going to allow team orders, blatant or otherwise, then maybe we should just make F1 time trials. That way the fastest car wins. Or they could allow team orders again and remove the WDC from the equation. If it's a team effort, why call it an individual title?

I'm more than aware of the difficulty in passing in F1, but also aware of why I like seeing racing, and not rigged spectacles that insult the viewers with such blatant cheating.

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That would be an ideal world but this is far from that. Teams are there to win championships. Alonso first and Massa second was the best result for Ferrari and they had the possibility to get it... so why not? Ferrari is fighting RBR and McLaren for the wdc and the wcc not Alonso. This is not McLaren. And everyone seem to foreget that Massa's performance this year was mediocre at best.

And speaking of McLaren what a hypocrite that Withmarsh is. He actually had the nerve to give the 2007 season as an example how they sacrificed a title to treat their drivers fairly. They've sacrificed it all right... by undermining the better driver.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Dude, you might have had a great argument, indeed, even a winning argument, but for Ferrari blowing the bottom out of your boat.

As one old lawyer once said, when your client has a solid case, try to keep them from inflicting irreparable damage upon themselves.......

or the same rule applies in legal disputes and orgies: be sure the person you are "having sex with" is not yourself

First ground establishing quilt as a matter of law (ie, beyond any factual dispute):
Ferrari contested the stewards hearing and argued no team orders. Stewards disagreed and hit them with the max fine.
No appeal taken.
In a court of law, that is what is known as res judicata, and a party who fails to appeal, is stuck with the finding (in this case that they cheated) and can no longer argue to the contrary; they are stuck with the label as a matter of law.
This was not a plea bargain or a settlement where a party pays without admitting fault. Too late for that. :rolleyes:

Second ground as a matter of law (ie beyond dispute):

Luca's own website establishes guilt, yet again. And makes it sound as though Luca is proud to do it in your face

Duh...... :rolleyes:

Third ground:
The radio transmission before and right after the pass....esp. the "good boy"


well double duh..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
while number three might arguably be gotten around with some fine lawyer work........the other two are fatal.

reminds me of a young nurse telling me how she hated doctors, because she never got over what happened on her first night of training in an Emergency room. A patient was wheeled in, and the doc took one look and said "mark him down as another Dead on arrival......NEXT"

She blurted out, "are you not even going to try to help him or even look at him?"

He responded, "well sweetie pie (and some other stuff) if you will find where they left his head and bring it to me, I will sew it back on....." :dozey:

She then acquired the nickname of "sew-it-back" among many of her profession, including docs

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It's all interesting but this is not a court of law...far from it. If they appeal they have a very good chance to get a bigger penalty. It's quite common not to appeal anything in f1.

The thing that makes motorsport unusual, if not unique, is that the team is effectively competing against itself. In no other sport does one half of the team compete against the other half.

F1 teams have to balance the shared goal of the WCC with the competing goal of the WDC. Not an enviable task. To make matters worse the media and the fans place more importance on the individual competition of the WDC and throw a hissy fit if they feel that competition has been fiddled with.