Two Isabellas finished the Safari in 1956 but were unplaced. This was the softest Safari ever with 78 finishers from 90 starters
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Two Isabellas finished the Safari in 1956 but were unplaced. This was the softest Safari ever with 78 finishers from 90 starters
Do you know maybe what version of Isabella it was that Ruprecht Hopfen drove in 1957? Was it saloon, coupe or TS (cabrio)?
BTW, I found that back in 1957 Borgward Isabella TS raced Mille Miglia but didn't finish. Also I found some traces of Borgward cars in Acropolis Rally:
1956 - 19. Wendker / Westerholt -D- Borgward
1958 - 18. Dr Joachim Kühling - Kurt Schöttler -D- Borgward Isabella
Again if someone knows what versions raced in Acropolis Rally please let me know.
I competed on the Tulpen Rallye with Marek Gierowski at number 7 -first event after a long break in 1973, Bob DeJong was the organiser. No entry list - sorry.
Thank you; I hope it will be wonderful in due course. I am trying to decide whether to eventually widen the scope to include other British events where TCS did not produce the results. Certainly in the period 1979 to 1990 the major omissions are some of the British International events. Anyway for the moment I will try and complete the current project.Quote:
Originally Posted by cvhi
What model of Borgward were you driving? I think Grisza would be interested to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by dgwest7
Well, not really as '73 is way off my scope. But it really strikes me how fast things got forgotten and how little we can reconstruct from the past. And it's not that distant time - only 60 years. Anyway, I hope maybe someone will find some more information on those Borgward cars.
ps.
It's great this forum exists (especially the history sub-forum) - a real gem I must say.
It was in 1974, Mr. West ! You drove a Porsche Carrera RS ..
Best regards
Jorge
I have now finished an initial pass through the 1983 results data (again more gaps than I would like but various people are searching for me). See
TCS British Rally Results from 1983 and I have started on 1982 and the current data is at TCS British Rally Results from 1982 with one or two additions per day.
Intrigued by the '83 Welsh Rally results sheet, listing Jimmy McRae as winning 'Class 7' ahead of Weidner's works 80 Quattro. What was 'Class 7'? Can't just be Group B cars, as otherwise the Quattros would surely have been classified ahead of the Manta; and the Chevette as well, presumably, given that for '83 I was under the impression it was running as a Group B car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Liddle
Hello
I am searching for the entry list of Sachs Rallye Baltic 1985.
I am missing car # 42, it was a A8-car, but missing info about driver, co-driver and car.
Class 7 was Group B over 1600cc. I think you are looking at the awards list not the class results page which is after the stage times pages. Art 27.3 of the regulations says that the first three overall are not eligible for class awards. We have always treated the Awards List and the Class Results as two separate entities.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Nr 42 in Sachs Rallye Baltic 1985 was Bernd Förster/Ulrich Liebert (Bochum) Ford Escort RS Turbo
Sorry I am new to this but I just wanted to know if anyone had the entry list for the 1958 Monte Carlo rally? I'm just looking if Harold Bacon entered then (or possibly a few years later). He was my late Grampy's best friend and a lovely man. Many thanks.
If anyone could just refer me where to look that would be great, thank you.
(French) ForumAuto has just posted 1958 results in their Monte thread. I don't have 58 entry list but someone there has probably posted it before (or will do so if asked, ignoring copyright as usual...)
thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by SSR2
Hi, I've tried to find the results but to no avail, please can you let me know where I need to look on the forum? Many thanks for your help.Quote:
Originally Posted by FAL
I've just given up waiting for it to open (it was faster than I've ever found it to be last night!).
The 58 Results are on latest or next to latest page of the Monte thread in the "Photos" section.
There will be another Monte thread in "Rallyes Historiques" section where the entry may be posted...but many pages back.
As this French forum is often very slow to load, here are the results from Monte Carlo 1958 as originally posted in there:
http://staticclub.caradisiac.com/1/s...icacio-img.jpg
I agree that "the French" do seem to have a cavalier attitude to copyright. This may be due to the French Law being less restrictive than English Law in the interpretation of "Fair use".Quote:
Originally Posted by FAL
However, there is no copyright restriction on facts, such as a list of the cardinals who elected the Pope. Any copyright restriction that exists can only relate to the method of presentation and format. So, reproducing a published list by posting a scan, ie making a facsimile, is a copyright breach. But copy type the basic list, change the font or juxtapose two columns and there is no breach of copyright as you have created something new. However it is courtesy to acknowledge the source of your information. In the context of this thread it does help to validate the information.
If the list included "pen portraits" as they are "literary works" they are copyright and copy typing them would be a breach of copyright.
Here's a list of rallies from the 50's (except Rallye Cote d'Ivoire) I'm interested in. I think I got all major rallies from Europe (plus two from Africa). But if I skipped some (or listed too many maybe?) please let me know what should be added/removed from my list?
Acropolis Rally
Boucles de Spa
Coupe des Alpes
Jyvaskylan Suurajot
Liege-Rome-Liege
Midnattsolsrallyt
Monte-Carlo
Osterreichische Alpenfahrt
RAC Rally
Rallye Cote d'Ivoire
Rallye de Geneve
Rallye de Sestriere
Rallye du Maroc
Rallye Lisboa
Rallye Lyons-Charbonnieres
Rallye Mont Blanc
Rallye Soleil-Cannes
Rallye Travemunde
Rallye Wiesbaden
Safari
Semperit Rallye
Stella Alpina
Tour de Corse
Tulpenrallye
Viking Rally
ps.
I omitted rallies from communist countries but it was intentional as I'm not interested in those events.
What is the list supposed to represent? [European] Championship rallies? International rallies? Any rallies?
Is the Midnattsolsrallyt the 'Rally to the Midnight Sun' that later became the Swedish Rally?
Finland's Rally of a Thousand Lakes qualifies on all counts
There was a German Rally at one time (not the Rallye Wiesbaden)
The Circuit of Ireland was an international rally but I don't think it was part of the European Championship
The Scottish Rally likewise
When the Mille Miglia race was stopped after the 1957 fatal accident, the event continued for a year or two as a rally
Tour de Luxembourg was run at least once when it was curtailed due to a fatal accident
Jugoslavanska Alpska Voznha (Yugoslavian Alpine Rally)
Stella Alpina (run by the Automobile Club Trento)
In the USA they had a European style rally titled the 'Press on Regardless' which I think had international status at one stage
The [Redex] Round Australia Trial was really a rally
It's just my personal list of rallies from the 50's that I found somehow interesting. I wanted to short-list international rallies from Europe (with those few exceptions I mentioned above), and rather bigger, better known events with large number of starters, and tough competition for both cars and drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
As my only source of information is GEL Motorsport Information Page I have very little idea about those rallies. That's why I wanted to ask if someone could verify this list for me please?
Yes, that's the (AFAIK) original name of this famous rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
That's good as I got it on my list as Jyvaskylan Suurajot (again original name).Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
But AFAIK, Rallye Wiesbaden was part of ERC - am I right? At least in 1953 and '54. Don't know anything about yet another rally from Germany (apart from ADAC-Rallye Travemunde).Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
Thank you for letting me know about those two islander's rallies ;) I'll try to find some information on them too.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
Mille Miglia is a different story so I will skip it. And this Tour de Luxembourg seems to be only a brief moment in history of rallies. But thank you for mentioning it as I didn't know about this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
That's interesting too but I'm pretty sure it will be almost impossible to find any more details on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
I got it on my list but I'm not sure if it fits my requirements? Was it a big event?Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
These are definitely off my scope of interest as I prefer the old world ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
All I know about the Stella Alpina is from a book about Alpine Trials and Rallies - ie principally the Alpine Rally. It was run from 1947 t0 1955 with a length between 1000km and 1500km and was a cross between a race and a rally. Winners were all Italian apart from 1955 when Olivier Gendebien / Mlle Gilberte Thirion won in a 300SL.
If you are confining to the 50s, the Scottish and Circuit of Ireland were just glorified tours then before being great rallies in the 60s and European Championship rounds in the 70s (some might say the RAC was a glorified navigation exercise then, but those are also the ones who didn't drive 5 days with one night in bed on it...).
Surprised to see the Boucles de Spa there in 50s - it was later a European Championship round of course.
The "Rally of the Thousand Lakes" was always an unofficial name. What translates as "The Trial of Jyvaskyla" was the true name until it became Rally Finland in the modern era. It was little known outside Finland (and Sweden I suppose) until the 60s.
The USA Press on Regardless and Canadian Rideau Lakes were briefly "world rallies" in the 70s before sinking back into national oblivion, unknown in the 50s.
@D-Type - Could you tell me please what other rallies are covered in this book?
@FAL - thank you for information on those rallies from Ireland and Scotland. I think I will add them to my list (or at least one of them). As for Boucles de Spa - it started in 1953 (don't know the exact date) so that's why it is on my list. But I have no idea whether it was a big, international event back in 50's.
Regarding my list, could you tell me please what rallies were restricted to only one car class and what type of class it was?
The book is Alpine Trials & Rallies 1910 t0 1973 by Martin Pfundner
This little book covers all the events in the period stated as a narrative with some rallies covered in more detail than others. It briefly explains the history and politics with the different Alpine nations taking more and less interest at diferent times. It gives results for each: sometimes overall winner, only and sometimes, top three overall and in class. It also lists all winners of Coupes des Alpes.
Rallies covered in the results:
Alpenfaht (Austria) 1910-14
Austrian Alpine Trials 1923, 1925, 1928, 1930, 1933, 1934
Alfold-Alpenfahrt (Austria) 1923, 1924, 1930
Coupe Internationale des Alpes (7 national clubs) 1928-34, 1936
Swiss Alpione Trial 1924
Deutsch Alpenfahrt 1938-39
Rallye des Alpes Francaises 1932-136, 1938-39, 1946-154, 1956, 1958-69, 1971
Osterreichische Alpenfahrt 1949-73
Jugoslovanska Alpska Voznja 1952-55
Coppa delle Alpi 1921-25
Stella Alpina 1947-55
As to types of cars, I only know about the Safari:
1953-56 "Absolutely unmodified" standard touring cars in 4 classes by price with a class handicap
1957 Standard touring cars in 3 classes by price with a class handicap (as this was the first year it had "International" status these were probably Group 1 cars if that classification existed then)
1958 Standard touring cars in 3 classes by price no class handicap, no overall winner
1959 Standard touring cars in 3 classes by price no class handicap
1960 Standard touring cars in 5 capacity classes, plus a class for "Improved Production and GT cars"
1961 Standard touring cars in 5 capacity classes
1962-63 Standard touring cars in 7 capacity classes
1964-67 Standard touring cars in 6 capacity classes
1968 Standard touring cars in 4 capacity classes
1969 Group 1 touring cars in 6 capacity classes
1970 Group 1 and Group 2 cars in 5 capacity classes each, ie the standard for the World Rally Championship for makes
and from there onwards it followed the World Rally Championship groups and classes
I hope that's clear ;)
As far as I know, the Safari was the only major rally to limit the categories of entries. History tends to get distorted by what made the news at the time. The 66 Monte Carlo Rally (first major rally under the revised Appendix J) was not limited to Group One cars but that's what you would think reading a lot of retro articles today. (It just handicapped Gp2 and 3 cars' times to such an extent that realistically only a Gp1 car could win).
The European Rally Championship (that was then the equivalent status of a non existent world championship) went through a phase of only allowing a couple of categories to score ERC points on each round eg. Gp1 and 2 on one rally, Gp2 and 3 on the next, Gp1 and 3 the next etc. - but the events themselves did not restrict categories.
Something I was reminded of the other day: it was well into the 50s before International Competition Licences were required on all International Rallies. The Monte was one (presumably because of its history of a bunch of Hooray Henrys lurching across Europe on a winter jolly jape). The Safari may have been another, as an RAF fighter pilot I knew who was based at Eastleigh once entered his wife's Peugeot 403 "because it was there" (and his marriage never did recover...).
As your RAF pilot friend was 'resident' in Kenya at the time, he could have obtained a Kenyan (or maybe East African) competition licence which would allow him to run in the Safari.
When did the CSI introduce Group 1, Group 2 etc?
I wasn't sure whether Kenya had its own (ie. separate from UK) comp licences then. I'm pretty sure this guy didn't have a British one. Strange situation even now with some former UK "colonies" that are now independent nations but not FIA affiliated. If a small country today just has a small relatively disorganised amount of local motorsport, it's not viable to fund FISA registration. That leaves anyone there who wants to compete Internationally with a problem if they hold only one passport. Antigua is an example I'm familiar with. Of course, the UK is one country where just having an address there is enough to get a British Competition Licence. No doubt it's supposed to be your address but... I think Shekhar Mehta was in that position on first leaving Uganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
I've never thoroughly researched when CSI/FISA/FIA Appendix J first went live. Something existed earlier but 1958 is often quoted as the year everyone was finally singing from the same hymn sheet.
In colonial times (pre-1960 or so), although they were nominally separate countries with different legal status the four East African territories were governed as a unit with one currency and no internal customs barriers. Banks and other businesses covered all the countries generally with an HQ in Nairobi and branches in the other capitals and major towns. The Royal East African Automobile Association (REAAA) reflected this and covered all of East Africa. It was affiliated to the RAC and as far as I know did not have its own membership of the FIA. It administered motor sport on behalf of the RAC with considerable autonomy, for example the REAAA isssued competition licences valid in all four countries. But it was subservient to the RAC in major issues, for example when there was a storm of protests in 1958 about the seals on the Ford suspension, the appeal went to the RAC for resolution. So your friend would have had a locally issued competition licence to run in the Safari.
With the coming of independence the REAAA became the Automobile Association of East Africa but still had its HQ in Nairobi. Eventually it became a member of the FIA in its own right, but representing only Kenya.
A few more clues from a Jaguar book:
"In 1953, Ian Appleyard foresook XKs, which were no longer eligible for the Monte Carlo Rally, for a Mk VII and finished a fine second in the general classification." I don't know if this meant that 2-seaters were no longer allowed or whether cars now had to be closed - I suspect it was 'no more 2-seaters'
XK 120s competed in the Alpine, the Tulip, the Liege-Sofia-Liege and the RAC so obviously 2-seaters were admitted to those events. They wouild have been in a separate class, probably with a stiffer time penalty than the saloons.
I have even seen photos of C-Type Jaguars running in the "Rallye Soleil Cannes' and the 'Tour de France'. As about 50 C-Types were made, they may have qualified as 'Production' cars.
And a bit more.
The November 1954 Motor Sport reports on the October 6th meeting of the CSI and some interesting things come out.
(1) A resolution to rename the "Touring Championship of Europe as the "Rally Championship of Europe" was defeated
(2) The Championship was to be for Group 1 (Standard series production cars) and Group 2 (Grand Touring) cars
(3) The 1955 Championship to comprise the following rallies:
Monte Carlo
Sestriere
British
tulip
Nurburgring
Midnight Sun
Alpine
Adriatic
Liege-Rome-Liege
Viking
Geneva
Hello Jrally,
This is what I have, indeed it's very hard to find results from Austrian rallies
11. Lavanttaler Frühlings Rally 27-29 March 1987
1 Georg Fischer – Thomas Zeltner Mig Linz Audi Coupé Quattro
2 Franz Wittmann – Jörg Pattermann Funkberäter Lancia Delta HF 4WD
3 Franz Filzmoser – Markus Mitterbauer Volkswagen Golf GTi 16V
4 Andreas Karasek – Fritz Schweighofer Ford Sierra RS Cosw.
5 Alois Pfeiffer – Hubert Stadler Mazda 323 4WD
6 Eddy Schlager – Ernst Röhringer Mazda 323 4WD
7 Peter Holub – Wolfgang Jörg Mercedes Benz 190E 2.3-16
8 Karl – Müllner Mazda 323 4WD
9 J. Winkler – E. Winkler Volkswagen Golf GTi 16V
10 Langauer - Kisselbach Mitsubishi Lancer
9. Int. Pirelli Phyrn-Eisenwurzen Rally 1-2 May 1998
1 Raphaël Sperrer – Christina Hörner Renault Elf Team Mégane Maxi
2 Markus Mitterbauer - Detlef Ruf Team Castrol Toyota Celica Turbo 4WD
3 Achim Mörtl - Jörg Pattermann Sebring Technology Subaru Impreza WRC
4 Willi Stengg - Harald Wolf Sebring Technology Ford Escort RS Cosw.
5 Sepp Haider - Stefan Eichhorner Peugeot Rallye Team 306 Maxi
6 Raimund Baumschlager - Klaus Wicha Remus Racing Volkswagen Golf TDi
7 Herbert Lettner - Heike Feichtinger Team Castrol Volkswagen Golf Kit Car
8 Matthias Moosleitner - Sigi Schwarz Ford Escort RS Cosw.
9 Tomaž Jemc - Matjaž Korošak Petrol Racing Ford Escort RS Cosw.
10 Fritz Waldherr - Thomas Fleer Lancia Delta HF Int.
If you have more results of the 87 and 98 championship, please I'm searching for this, but hard to find.
Regards,
Infiniti
Infiniti,
As discussion has moved on to other topics since Jrally posted his query it would have helped to trace things if you had copied his query into your response.
Everybody,
As we have just a single thread for "Rally History" I think we need to adopt this type of approach when more than one topic are being discussed.
Duncan (in his capacity as moderator)
Nurburgring? Could you tell me please what kind of rally was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Type
As for my list I would have a couple of more questions:
1. What happened to Rallye Wiesbaden? It was a part of ERC in '53 and '54 but not in '55 anymore.
2. When rallies with multiple starting points (Monte-Carlo, RAC, Lisboa, Tulip) ceased using this formula?
3. Which rallies used at least 70% non-tarmac roads? AFAIK, Acropolis and Moroccan had almost 100% gravel roads, and Safari a mix of gravel, sand and mud I guess. Also Rallye del Sestriere was a bit different since it was held in late February and most of the roads were covered in snow (but I'm judging it only from some pictures I googled). And what about the others?
I am simply quoting what the magazine report said. I'm afraid I don't know details. Maybe the Nurburgring and Wiesbaden Rallies were the same event as the two places are only about 60mi / 100km apart.
Your description of East African roads is about right. Very few inter-town roads were tarmac. Some roads were classified as 'dry weather only' and some as 'all-weather' - the latter being those with a higher stone and gravel content. As the rally developed, the route tended to follow secondary roads which were never tarmac.
The first Safari (1953) had multiple starting points (Nairobi, Morogoro and Kampala) but this was abandoned in subsequent years.
I think Lisboa sunk after foreign crews were heavily penalised for not having black numbers on a white background and local crews won. They were penalised twice, once for each side of the car...
The old story of factions within the sport in certain countries. No evidence, but the more welcome faction may have only finally emerged victorious when the TAC Rally became a popular International in the late 60s (ironically with multiple starting points, when the Monte was the only other remaining multi-start event).
I don't think you will ever establish the exact mix of surfaces, even with all the official rally documents. For example, it is comparatively recently (70s) that the RAC Rally began to issue any meaningful advance information about the stages. In total mileage, the Acropolis had plenty of tarmac, just not used for most of the more competitive sections. The competitive element in Sweden and Finland was gravel and there were (are still) comparatively few tarmac main roads. The Liege had reduced gravel as more and more Alpine passes became surfaced but more as it pushed further into eastern Europe.
The 58 RAC Rally still had a choice of starts (Blackpool or Hastings). I don't think the 59 edition did (Jack Kemsley's first as organiser) and the "forest" RACs of 60 onwards didn't.
Grisza, a few more pieces for your jigsaw from Motor Sport magazine. What are you planning to do with this information?
In addition to the European Touring Championship, ie Rally Championship, there was also a European Women's Touring Championship
In 1952 the CSI first defined a Standard Touring Car and in 1954 they introduced 'Forms of Recognition', ie homologation forms.
The 1958 Acropolis Rally had Trieste and Athens as starting points
The 1954 Championship rounds were:
Monte Carlo Rally
Sestriere Rally
RAC Rally
Tulip Rally
Travenmunde Rally
Rally to the Midnight Sun
Alpine Rally
Liege-Rome-Liege
Viking Rally
Rally of the Snow (Geneve)
Lisbon Rally
In 1959 the qualifiers were:
Monte Carlo Rally
Sestriere Rally
Tulip Rally
German Rally
Acropolis Rally
Rally to the Midnight Sun
Alpine Rally
Adriatic Rally
Rally of the Million Lakes (Finland)
Liege-Rome-Liege
Viking Rally
Portuguese Rally
RAC Rally
Points in the 1959 Championship were only awarded to 'Production Touring cars (1000 off, saloon car bodies)
Thank you guys for all your replies and information provided. As for ERC '54 - are you sure it was Rallye Travemünde?
The website I'm using says it was Rallye Wiesbaden:
European Rally Championship
And it seems that Rallye Wiesbaden became later the International German Rally. That's what German wiki says:
Rallye Wiesbaden
Unfortunately I couldn't find any information on Rallye Travemünde.
D-Type, would you be so kind and post here also rounds of ERC from 1956-58?
I'm afraid that's all I could find searching the 1950's Motor Sport CD ROM - They didn't list the Championship rallies every year. The lists were published in the November or December magazines and were the lists provided by the CSI or the RAC for the following year.
Perhaps the Weisbaden was originally listed as Rallye Travemünde in October 1953 and by the time it was run it had become the Rallye Weisbaden. As I said above, the two towns aren't that far apart so it could well be the same rally. Or perhaps one club found they couldn't run a major rally so the other took over, or ....? Even in those pre-sponsorship days the names of rallies did change.