Name that Car 2

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Put it this way, the photos and captions are from people who were well aquainted with both Sneva and Tipke.
It is kind of like telling the Pope he is not a Catholic.

I will give the source later.
Bob

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Explain why the raced on April 7th as 39, came here as 41 and go back to Indy as 39.

No doubt that Tipke may have rented or borrowed the car but that is not the same car. Bigger side pods and lower nose profile and a wide engine compartment for the Foyt engine.

If I was near my files, I could too find out more info.

I am going to run these through a photo editor and send them to experts I know.
I have been trying to find the Lloyd Ruby Atlanta for 30 years and this just maybe the last known shots of it.

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

I have been trying to find the Lloyd Ruby Atlanta for 30 years and this just maybe the last known shots of it.

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The photo is the Tipke look at the roll bar also the Tipke was run in another class and then converted to USAC standards that is why it has 41 on it.
I have been down this road before. :rolleyes:


Here is Lloyd Ruby's Atlanta
http://shutter11.pictures.aol.com/da...vgGqvv0258.jpg

Phoenix:
While trying to find early info on the Tipke Indy car, searches uncoved that Wally drove more than one version of his car, same builder, not unknown to western states.
Bob

ahh the Tipke - if I recall correctly, the last time this car came up we had a very similar debate and even caused quite a stir on the autosport message board (due, I believe, to my insistence that it was not the Tipke but rather something that Grant King had done - I was wrong...).

Nice set of photos Bob - so what about the #71 is that a Tipke "sprint" car???

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Originally Posted by Phoenixent

The photo is the Tipke look at the roll bar also the Tipke was run in another class and then converted to USAC standards that is why it has 41 on it.
I have been down this road before. :rolleyes:


Here is Lloyd Ruby's Atlanta
http://shutter11.pictures.aol.com/da...vgGqvv0258.jpg

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I have this picture and look at the first shot. I am looking for where the car went after Gene White.
Talked to a person this AM and he said it was sold to a person in the Northwest in January of 1973 but never was raced.
He is going to do more digging.
Look carefully you will see these two pictures as one in the same. The TIPKE CAR IS A NOSE BREATHER and this is NOT.

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

I have this picture and look at the first shot. I am looking for where the car went after Gene White.
Talked to a person this AM and he said it was sold to a person in the Northwest in January of 1973 but never was raced.
He is going to do more digging.
Look carefully you will see these two pictures as one in the same. The TIPKE CAR IS A NOSE BREATHER and this is NOT.

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WALDO I am wondering if you can see the trees thru the woods. In 1972 Penske modified the nose on one of the McLaren's to a nose breather as you so call it at Ontario. Changing the nose on a car in the early 70's happened all the time.

You are flogging a dead horse on this one it's a TIPKE. It's time to move on.

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Originally Posted by Phoenixent

WALDO I am wondering if you can see the trees thru the woods. In 1972 Penske modified the nose on one of the McLaren's to a nose breather as you so call it at Ontario. Changing the nose on a car in the early 70's happened all the time.

You are flogging a dead horse on this one it's a TIPKE. It's time to move on.

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Got a picture? It has to do with plumbing. You need the plumbing for the radiator and the side pods in these cars were RADIATORS.

It may be but not according to my sources that were around at the time as I was.
The only car at Ontario for Penske in 1972 was Mike Hiss in Donohue's 500 winning McLaren. Many times at Phoenix and Ontario a BLACK STRIP was placed on the NOSE to stop PITTING from SAND. This rapidly changed the handling of the car.
The Black in that picture is that.

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

Got a picture? It has to do with plumbing. You need the plumbing for the radiator and the side pods in these cars were RADIATORS.

It may be but not according to my sources that were around at the time as I was.
The only car at Ontario for Penske in 1972 was Mike Hiss in Donohue's 500 winning McLaren. Many times at Phoenix and Ontario a BLACK STRIP was placed on the NOSE to stop PITTING from SAND. This rapidly changed the handling of the car.
The Black in that picture is that.

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Plumbing can be rerouted as for the photo that is your burden of proof. I was at Ontario from 1970 to 1973 with my father and we looked at those cars from pit row side of the track. The mod was still on that McLaren when Jim Hurtubise drove it in 1974. Go look for it.

Jim Hurtubise's McLaren in 1974



FYI :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by Phoenixent

Plumbing can be rerouted as for the photo that is your burden of proof. I was at Ontario from 1970 to 1973 with my father and we looked at those cars from pit row side of the track. The mod was still on that McLaren when Jim Hurtubise drove it in 1974. Go look for it.

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I have and it wasn't. Why would a team convert the most perfect car to an obsolete set up?

Only one nose breather in 1974 at Indy was Larry Cannon. Again they put a teflon black strip on the nose to avoid pitting.

Here is the history of nose breathers from 1972 on.

Donohue in 1972: 191.400

Fastest Noses Breathers
1972
Mosley 189.140
Rutherford 183.230
McCluskey 182.680
Snider 181.800
Savage 181.720
Kenyon 181.380
Hurtubise 181.050 (1971 Coyote)
Walther 180.540
Williams 180.460 (1966 Eagle)
Martin 179.610
Kunzman 179.260
Caruthers 178.900

Fastest Noses Breathers
1973
NONE

Fastest Noses Breathers
1974
Cannon 173.960

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Originally Posted by Alexamateo

Jim Hurtubise's McLaren in 1974



FYI :s mokin:

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I don't see a radiator in the nose. I see Jim had the side mounted radiator pulled down a bit.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to replumb a side breather to a nose breather but not the other way.

The 1973 Kenyon/Coyote-Eagle/Foyt would be the last one. A 1967 Coyote.

I have Opera and was able to enlarge the image 200 percent; there are two small openings in the nose.
What they do who knows, perhaps and extra oil cooler for the blower or who knows what.
Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

I have Opera and was able to enlarge the image 200 percent; there are two small openings in the nose.
What they do who knows, perhaps and extra oil cooler for the blower or who knows what.
Bob

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Nope, the 1972 and 1973 cars ran with bigger wings, front and back. These cars when they were clipped at Pocono in 1973 became handfuls. So USAC allowed all 1972 and 1973 this small openings to increase the front downforce and allow for something very important, better stearing.
Problem was in 1974 when Gurney built an Eagle and McLaren built a new car these cars were considerably slower due to that.

Part of history. Oil Coolers were located as part of the radiator system. Some were split as I understand it.

What are we all arguing about here anyway?

When this car came up before, it was finally settled that it was indeed the car that raced as a Tipke. Whether or not Mr. Tipke used an Eagle or Foyt or Atlanta as the basis or not was not discussed and as near as I can tell would be speculation. Perhaps we should ask the guy himself (or his survivors - do not know if he is alive...)
http://www.tipkemfg.com/

As for Waldo's explanation of the nose holes - you mean the new Ferrari snout is not original??? :D Seems like a pretty good explanation for the McLaren and is consistent with Phoenix's first hand observations.

That being said - the #41 in the original photo clearly has a big enough opening in the nose to accommodate radiators you can see the shadow lines of the inside corners of the opening- it does not appear to be protective tape to me.....

Not to further stray from the issue - but re-plumbing a car is really no big deal - the Tyrell cars of Jackie Stewart ran both front and rear/side mounted configurations on the same car. It might not have been pretty (water pipes exposed etc.) but it most certainly CAN be done. For that matter - the original Bob Riley Coyote of 1973 had side radiators but the later versions had front mounted radiators (or at least some front mounted cooling). Actually, if you wanted to get real technical - I would imagine the fastest front radiatored car ever at Indy was probably Foyt's 1978 Coyote (I think it qualified at over 200 mph). If you can put a V-12 Voekler engine in a 1972 Antares I think you can move the radiator on an M-16 McLaren (not saying this is what happened - but it CAN be done)....

So, Bob, can you re-cap the info on these cars???

THe site with the info on Jim Tipke is under developement, and yes one can try to call his company and speak to him.
I will not give the web site just yet as I want to see if anyone can find out who built Wally Pankratz's RE car.(Not a Tipke)
Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

I will not give the web site just yet as I want to see if anyone can find out who built Wally Pankratz's RE car.(Not a Tipke)
Bob

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I don't know, but I am trying to make an educated guess here. Wally Pankratz never made an Indycar start, but did have two appearances at Riverside and Phoenix in a King-Chevy, so I'm going to say that he took that car and made a supermod out of it, so I'll say it's a Grant King car.

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Originally Posted by Alexamateo

I don't know, but I am trying to make an educated guess here. Wally Pankratz never made an Indycar start, but did have two appearances at Riverside and Phoenix in a King-Chevy, so I'm going to say that he took that car and made a supermod out of it, so I'll say it's a Grant King car.

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Good try, but Nope, purpose built, check around western tracks where he ran.

Is the coast clear. :D

Any way I will be back shortly with some info I hope on Wally Pankratz car.

Just FYI Ruby's Atlanta has opening in the nose at Indy 1972. :)

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Originally Posted by Phoenixent

Just FYI Ruby's Atlanta has opening in the nose at Indy 1972. :)

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So where was the picture taken Trenton? I was there when it qualified and I didn't see one.

So take a car that is a 190MPH and increase the weight, make it plow through the air instead of cut and make it more expensive, to go 180. Glad I didn't see that when it occurred.

Foyt had a areo devise in the nose of the car, that is why he had it covered everytime in the pits. Actually Howard Gilbert came up with that in 1975.

Nope, Larry Cannon had the last nose breather in the race and the V-12 Voekler engine never made it into 1972 Antares or any other car. F-1 rules differed than rules here.

I got three calls saying it was an Atlanta and the FOYT ENGING GIVES IT AWAY but it is a Tipke Offy.

Hey, two of them worked for Gene White what would they know.

Move one.

is this the Coyote you think it is - the one with the Eagle bulkheads??

or this Atlanta-Foyt??

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

So where was the picture taken Trenton? I was there when it qualified and I didn't see one.

So take a car that is a 190MPH and increase the weight, make it plow through the air instead of cut and make it more expensive, to go 180. Glad I didn't see that when it occurred.

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OK WALDO SINCE YOU HAVE NOT OFFERED ANY PROOF OF WHAT YOU SAY OTHER THAN I WAS THERE OR SOMEONE SAID HERE IS ANOTHER PHOTO FOR YOU FROM 1972 INDY QUALIFING. IF YOU ARE GOING TO SAYS SOMETHING BACK IT UP WITH SOMETHING SOLID. YOU HAVE DRAGGED THIS ON FOR WAY TO LONG.

http://shutter12.pictures.aol.com/da...mjZdy20280.jpg
Notice the nose square and with tape over it.

I am not thinking that intake plenum that looks like a Foyt is actually on a Foyt engine - you cannot see the requisite plumbing above it in the center of the engine that would be there - especially the rather large thing sticking up on most 1972 Foyts I can find a photo of..... The rollbars look different and the nose appears to be much shorter (less space between the wings and the tires on the photo in question)... Also the cowling leading up to the cockpit is a much gentler slope than the Atlanta.

I am not saying all this to be combative - I am very curious as to the lineage oaf this car as well as the Atlanta in question - which I always wondered what an "Atlanta" was about anyway.....

To everyone else forgive my yelling.

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Originally Posted by Phoenixent

OK WALDO SINCE YOU HAVE NOT OFFERED ANY PROOF OF WHAT YOU SAY OTHER THAN I WAS THERE OR SOMEONE SAID HERE IS ANOTHER PHOTO FOR YOU FROM 1972 INDY QUALIFING. IF YOU ARE GOING TO SAYS SOMETHING BACK IT UP WITH SOMETHING SOLID. YOU HAVE DRAGGED THIS ON FOR WAY TO LONG.

http://shutter12.pictures.aol.com/da...mjZdy20280.jpg
Notice the nose square and with tape over it.

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Interesting but the car had handling problems and this was one way of getting pass it. This car was not a handling dream and was having a problem turning. Now is that a Radiator? No, the cut the nose off as they did to the #21.
Believe what you want but look at the engine and compare that to the first shot. This a plumber's dream, a Foyt engine.

Oh yes I was standing about even with the front wing to the right of that picture.
This picture makes the other one stand out even better.

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Originally Posted by Chris R

I am not thinking that intake plenum that looks like a Foyt is actually on a Foyt engine - you cannot see the requisite plumbing above it in the center of the engine that would be there - especially the rather large thing sticking up on most 1972 Foyts I can find a photo of..... The rollbars look different and the nose appears to be much shorter (less space between the wings and the tires on the photo in question)... Also the cowling leading up to the cockpit is a much gentler slope than the Atlanta.

I am not saying all this to be combative - I am very curious as to the lineage oaf this car as well as the Atlanta in question - which I always wondered what an "Atlanta" was about anyway.....

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It was built and designed by the guys that built the 1971 McLaren and paid for by Firestone and Gene White.
Built in suburban Atlanta and only had three cars built.

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Originally Posted by Chris R

is this the Coyote you think it is - the one with the Eagle bulkheads??

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Nope, this the the 1972 Coyote that was bad.

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Originally Posted by Chris R

or this Atlanta-Foyt??

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This car became the Larry McCoy RASCAR-Offy in 1973-1976

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

So where was the picture taken Trenton? I was there when it qualified and I didn't see one.

So take a car that is a 190MPH and increase the weight, make it plow through the air instead of cut and make it more expensive, to go 180. Glad I didn't see that when it occurred.

Foyt had a areo devise in the nose of the car, that is why he had it covered everytime in the pits. Actually Howard Gilbert came up with that in 1975.

Nope, Larry Cannon had the last nose breather in the race and the V-12 Voekler engine never made it into 1972 Antares or any other car. F-1 rules differed than rules here.

I got three calls saying it was an Atlanta and the FOYT ENGING GIVES IT AWAY but it is a Tipke Offy.

Hey, two of them worked for Gene White what would they know.

Move one.

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ok, it was in an Eagle :D

another shot of the Olmstead Eage-Voekler

If it is an Atlanta-Foyt the who is driving, where and when??

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Originally Posted by Chris R

another shot of the Olmstead Eage-Voekler

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Looks like a 1973 Eagle with a tumor on it.

EXTREMELY RARE PHOTO!

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Originally Posted by Chris R

If it is an Atlanta-Foyt the who is driving, where and when??

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That was the second Gene White entry, (I REFERED TO) that was driven by Cale Yarborough at the Speedway to 10th. He was the slowest qualifier but still faster than Peter Revson in 1971, the pole sitter.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...postcount=2054

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

That was the second Gene White entry, (I REFERED TO) that was driven by Cale Yarborough at the Speedway to 10th. He was the slowest qualifier but still faster than Peter Revson in 1971, the pole sitter.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...postcount=2054

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Ok, but who is the driver and track then - did this second entry make it to Phoenix??

Guys, for what it is worth - I went back to the archives and we actually never actually figured out this car - we just sort of moved on. The problem was that the number on the car never jived with anything in 1972 or 1973 in the era of big wings. It was more or less agreed that the car must be the Tipke but that is where it was left....

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Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!

That was the second Gene White entry, (I REFERED TO) that was driven by Cale Yarborough at the Speedway to 10th. He was the slowest qualifier but still faster than Peter Revson in 1971, the pole sitter.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...postcount=2054

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But that car was #21 - so who is in this #41 car and where is it??

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Originally Posted by Chris R

But that car was #21 - so who is in this #41 car and where is it??

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According to some it is Tom Sneva in the Tipke-Offy at a PIR test in April of 1973 as the March race was flooded out and cancelled.

The car ran at TWS as #39, they put #41 for this PIR test around the 18th of April and then went back to #39 for Indy. A driver was killed in this test.

The car has a Foyt engine in it and now looks like the #5 Ruby car of 1972.

I wrote about the Atlantas 30 years ago and we lost track of the #5 car. I was told a day or two ago it was sold to someone in the Northwest. That car could very well have become that Supermodified also.

The #41 number in 1973 was a Vel's Parnelli Jones Back up number, #4 Al Unser, #1 Leonard.

For what it is worth it was a car very rarely seen and in the case of the #5, if it is not the #41 then it disappeared in to the Cascade mountains.

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Originally Posted by Chris R

But that car was #21 - so who is in this #41 car and where is it??

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I am going to say this once and not debate it, the orange 41 car is the Tipke car.
If you think otherwise, then tell Jim Tipke it is not his car.
Cars get changed while being developed.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

I am going to say this once and not debate it, the orange 41 car is the Tipke car.
If you think otherwise, then tell Jim Tipke it is not his car.
Cars get changed while being developed.

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Not disagreeing but it already had race when that picture was taken. That is the issue, with a different number and a whole different look and when it arrived at the Speedway it looked like it did at TWS.

Lot of work to get to square one.

Let's move on, put up another car.

As for the Pankratz car - I am looked and looked and I cannot find anything about that spcifically - I am going to take a wild guess and say Luije Lesovsky - but I imagine I am wrong.....