Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

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9th September 2008, 12:55
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

It wasn't an overambitious overtaking move, because Räikkönen braked so early that Hamilton had not other option than to take alongside him. Secondly he stayed on the circuit, with overambitious move he should have flown off.

Or rammed Räikkönen.

Of course, no blame can be attached to Räikkönen because he was clearly being very cautious in the changing conditions, and who can blame him? But, to me, it seems fair to say that 'blame' isn't necessary here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

You mentioned Monza. Well, I'm not sure, but I think it has been done several times in the past that after cutting the first chicane rival driver will be passed in the next chicane? Or not? Chicane shortcuts are quite normal there especially on the opening laps. Don't remember anyone getting penalized though.

I can certainly recall such incidents. However, am I right in thinking that at least one driver (possibly Panis?) was penalised for cutting a chicane at Hockenheim?
9th September 2008, 13:06
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Stop telling people what they are thinking and saying!!!!!! It's RUDE and you keep on doing it. People have come out and said why they think Lewis was penalised and that they agree with it and you should accept that this is their opinion. Just as I accept that people feel he shouldn't have been penalised. If you can't keep to the discussion you simply resort to calling people biased and so on and on. It's not cool and you just make yourself look silly. You've had your say numerous times and we all know what you think so unless you have something new and useful to add to the discussion.....

All due respect here Daniel....but your telling Knock On what to think now.

Surely he is allowed to express an opinion that he thinks some people are being biased.

If you look at past incidents, none have been penalised after letting a car past, even if they did get slipstream after. And on top of that no sporting advantage was gained, reason for not penalising Massa (unsafe release standard penalty is 25s added on).

Its just totally inconsistant. And while I can see the reasoning behind the Stewards verdict, this has not been the case in the past. And it always seems McLaren lose out to this, while Ferrari benefit. And for any Ferrari fan to deny this, I cannot help but think they're being slightly niave to the facts themselves.

I'm supporting Massa for the title, but even I can see the FIA and Stewards seem to be taking a hard line against McLaren. I read somewhere McLAren have been investigated 13 times this year, to Ferraris 4. McLaren been penalised 11 times to Ferrari's 1. Sure each incident is individual, and different circumstances, but you can't help but feel if a different team was involved, a different outcome would happen.

And the incidents with Massa in Spain and Hamilton in Belgium highly support this. Both found to be guilty of rule breaking (whether we agree or not as to whether they're guilty or not). Both did not gain a sporting advantage. One had a 25s time penalty, other had no punishment, just team given €10,000 fine.

And standard penalty for unsafe release is 25s time penalty (Imola 2005) when they decide to penalise it.
9th September 2008, 13:20
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Well, rather than going obout telling people how rude they are :rolleyes: perhaps you would care to answer this post.

I will repeat the facts.

In the PdlR / Schumacher example, Schumacher went off track and gained an advantage by not losing his position which he would have done otherwise. However, he gained no "actual" advantage regarding race position.

However, he did gain an advantage by going off track as he would have lost his place but there was no penalty.

With Kimi at the beginning at Spa, he made a mistake and went off track but rejoined in the same race position thereby not gaining any advantage but did not lose a place or any time which he would have done if, for example, there was gravel there instead of nice sticky tarmac.

Is this to be considered an advantage though as there was no penalty for going off track and although he gained benefit by going off track in not losing a position he otherwise would have done, he didn't gain a place but merely maintained one.

With Lewis, before he had to avoid a collision, he was partially alongside. Then he cut the chicane and ended up ahead so he lifted giving Kimi the lead, about a cars length gap and superior momentum down the straight meaning he was in a worse position than before he cut the chicane.

Yet he is further penalise 25 seconds when the others who it could be argued benefited from going off track were not penalised.

Regardless of the teams or drivers involved, this is obviously wrong isn't it?

Thing is and with all due respect there are going to be times where things happen like at turn 1 where a mass of cars go off through no fault of their own and some may gain advantage and some may lose position or time. IMHO that's a racing incident. The thing about Lewis' off was that it was completely his fault. He knew full well he had very little chance of passing Kimi there yet went for it unlike others who may have had to avoid another car which was having a momen or accident.

As for the Schumacher thing I don't see the point in arguing about a tiny snippet of a race. These sort of clips are very selectively picked to show someone's point. I'm sure if I wanted I could gather clips which show Hamilton doing this sort of thing and not getting penalised as well and claim that there is bias towards McLaren.

I fail to see the problem with me pointing out the fact that you putting words in other people's mouths and telling them what they're thinking contrary to what they're saying. It is rude.......
9th September 2008, 13:34
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

All due respect here Daniel....but your telling Knock On what to think now.

Surely he is allowed to express an opinion that he thinks some people are being biased.

If you look at past incidents, none have been penalised after letting a car past, even if they did get slipstream after. And on top of that no sporting advantage was gained, reason for not penalising Massa (unsafe release standard penalty is 25s added on).

Its just totally inconsistant. And while I can see the reasoning behind the Stewards verdict, this has not been the case in the past. And it always seems McLaren lose out to this, while Ferrari benefit. And for any Ferrari fan to deny this, I cannot help but think they're being slightly niave to the facts themselves.

I'm supporting Massa for the title, but even I can see the FIA and Stewards seem to be taking a hard line against McLaren. I read somewhere McLAren have been investigated 13 times this year, to Ferraris 4. McLaren been penalised 11 times to Ferrari's 1. Sure each incident is individual, and different circumstances, but you can't help but feel if a different team was involved, a different outcome would happen.

And the incidents with Massa in Spain and Hamilton in Belgium highly support this. Both found to be guilty of rule breaking (whether we agree or not as to whether they're guilty or not). Both did not gain a sporting advantage. One had a 25s time penalty, other had no punishment, just team given €10,000 fine.

And standard penalty for unsafe release is 25s time penalty (Imola 2005) when they decide to penalise it.

In my opinion Massa's pitstop incident doesn't justify a penalty for the driver. Massa went when he was told to and he slotted in behind Sutil after a short distance alongside and Sutil didn't need to take significant action. It was in my opinion borderline unsafe and it wasn't the drivers fault so the team were given a small fine. If Massa had pulled out into a car I'd be supporting a significant penalty but he didn't.

Why was Lewis craned back onto the track last year? I've never seen that done for anyone else. Surely that's a clear, obvious and undoubtable sign of bias?

Like I said. No bias.... just bad decisions.
9th September 2008, 13:41
Brown, Jon Brow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Thing is and with all due respect there are going to be times where things happen like at turn 1 where a mass of cars go off through no fault of their own and some may gain advantage and some may lose position or time. IMHO that's a racing incident. The thing about Lewis' off was that it was completely his fault. He knew full well he had very little chance of passing Kimi there yet went for it unlike others who may have had to avoid another car which was having a momen or accident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

At 3:27 Kimi is very early on the brakes. It looks like Lewis is taking avoiding action as much as he is trying to make a pass, the result of this is that he ends up in a position where Kimi can force him wide.

That said Hamilton, could have still stayed on the track but it wasn't completely his own fault. It was a racing incident.
9th September 2008, 13:41
Rollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Why was Lewis craned back onto the track last year? I've never seen that done for anyone else. Surely that's a clear, obvious and undoubtable sign of bias?

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr706.html

Quote:

with a little help from three marshals and what appeared to be a spectator (although it was in fact the man who had driven a tractor to the scene to pull the Ferrari away into retirement) the Ferrari was pushed back on to the track

Neither have I :D
9th September 2008, 13:43
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Thing is and with all due respect there are going to be times where things happen like at turn 1 where a mass of cars go off through no fault of their own and some may gain advantage and some may lose position or time. IMHO that's a racing incident.

I agree. Although it was Kimi's mistake and he was the 1st person to go off, I think it is a racing incident and although going off track allowed him to maintain his position, there should be no penalty.

Quote:

The thing about Lewis' off was that it was completely his fault. He knew full well he had very little chance of passing Kimi there yet went for it unlike others who may have had to avoid another car which was having a momen or accident.

Are you telling Lewis now what he was thinking :laugh:

In case you missed it, Kimi braked early and Lewis was alongside him on the outside of the first corner. Lewis had the inside as the 2nd corner but Kimi came across forcing him off the track. Now, according to the FIA regulations, this sort of driving should be severly punished. However, the more realistic of us consider it hard racing and again, I don't think Kimi should be penalised for it.

Quote:

As for the Schumacher thing I don't see the point in arguing about a tiny snippet of a race. These sort of clips are very selectively picked to show someone's point. I'm sure if I wanted I could gather clips which show Hamilton doing this sort of thing and not getting penalised as well and claim that there is bias towards McLaren.

It was several instances in a race where he was guilty of maintaining his position that he would have otherwise have lost by cutting corners and not yielding the position.

Yet you argue this is inadmissible yet the tiny snippet at Spa you consider to be worthy of a 25 second penalty even though Hamilton conceeded the position immediately.

Do you not see why people may consider your opinion hypocritical?

Quote:

I fail to see the problem with me pointing out the fact that you putting words in other people's mouths and telling them what they're thinking contrary to what they're saying. It is rude.......

As I have said previously, I don't give a figg what personal comments you care to direct at me. However, if it's something you consider against forum rules, there is a "report post" option but making personal attacks against me could be seen as being against forum rules.

Up to you fella but might I suggest you stick to the topic?
9th September 2008, 13:46
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

At 3:27 Kimi is very early on the brakes. It looks like Lewis is taking avoiding action as much as he is trying to make a pass, the result of this is that he ends up in a position where Kimi can force him wide.

That said Hamilton, could have still stayed on the track but it wasn't completely his own fault. It was a racing incident.

I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation but be that as it may if Lewis had stayed on the track on the line he was on he would have been significantly slower than Kimi on the exit of the corner and wouldn't have been in a position to fight for the next corner.
9th September 2008, 13:50
Tonieke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Thing is and with all due respect there are going to be times where things happen like at turn 1 where a mass of cars go off through no fault of their own and some may gain advantage and some may lose position or time. IMHO that's a racing incident. The thing about Lewis' off was that it was completely his fault. He knew full well he had very little chance of passing Kimi there yet went for it unlike others who may have had to avoid another car which was having a momen or accident.

As for the Schumacher thing I don't see the point in arguing about a tiny snippet of a race. These sort of clips are very selectively picked to show someone's point. I'm sure if I wanted I could gather clips which show Hamilton doing this sort of thing and not getting penalised as well and claim that there is bias towards McLaren.

I fail to see the problem with me pointing out the fact that you putting words in other people's mouths and telling them what they're thinking contrary to what they're saying. It is rude.......

Daniel...please...you say Kimi went off track at the very first corner and it wasn't his own fault ? When you look at the footage..By what or whom was he forced to leave the track ? if he hit the brakes (Like Lewis should have donne according to the pro penalty people) he would have been able to make the corner in a proper way..but by doin so he would have lost momentum..instead he choose to keep the foot down....keeping the pace..and closing in on massa..who took the corner in a correct way..so again..No advantage ? No punishment ? Why not ?
9th September 2008, 13:56
dwf1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

At 3:27 Kimi is very early on the brakes. It looks like Lewis is taking avoiding action as much as he is trying to make a pass, the result of this is that he ends up in a position where Kimi can force him wide.

That said Hamilton, could have still stayed on the track but it wasn't completely his own fault. It was a racing incident.

CORRECT my friend

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