R-Classes News

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Because it is a fact that the S2000 are reasonably cheaper both to purchase and to run than the 1.6T S2000 (those are same expensive as WRC cars). R5 is declared to be cheaper than S2000 and I don't have a reason not to believe it. I don't believe it will be half of the S2000 or so but I do believe it will be less and therefore much less than the 1.6T S2000. They declare to have much longer maintenance cyclus (now the S2000 engine rebuilds are in 700-1500 km, for R5 Peugeot speaks about 3000 km). they declare there will be some more strict price limits than for S2000. Of course the time will show.

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Even using less expensive engines than RRC, R5 cars won't be cheap and only pro teams will use them, like it hapens with actual S2000NA cars, so amateurs thinking of replace N4 cars will have to stick with their aging material or change to 2wd.

The main reason why this new category won't be cheap it's the constant factory developement that Skoda and Peugeot will put in it, because both manufactureurs will compete one against other in IRC and by doing it costs will certainly raise beyond any strict price limited by FIA.

We've seen it happen with the S2000 cars where late Fabias and 207 prices almost doubled the initial €150.000 proposed price.

Instead of this expensive R5 cars FIA should introduce an amateur friendly 4wd category and promote their use in national and regional series.

The place of manus like Skoda and Peugeot is the WRC, it doesn't make sense anymore to have a international series like IRC competing with WRC.

If manus won't have the capacity, financial or political, to enter WRC using WRC cars, then FIA should bring back a 2wd world series inside WRC, like it happen in the late 90's with Kit-cars.

A WRC 2wd category using R3+ cars would be a much wiser step in order to sustain the so much needed WRC recovery.

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Originally Posted by Hazza555)

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...36473859_n.jpg

WRX STI R4 sedan to debut at Rally Hokkaido...

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Please show me good photo of the rear suspension and arms etc before I make a comment saying oh boy.

Also what motor? Old EJ20 92 x 78 or the new whatever motor with 86mm bore and 86 stroke?

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Originally Posted by Arganil

Even using less expensive engines than RRC, R5 cars won't be cheap and only pro teams will use them, like it hapens with actual S2000NA cars, so amateurs thinking of replace N4 cars will have to stick with their aging material or change to 2wd.

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Well, what is cheap? For me a Trabant is cheap :) The target of the R5 is to be TOP regional/national machinery. Spectators are not interested in gr.N cars as top machinery etc. We've seen that here very clearly when WRC cars were banned. Crowds disappeared. They came back slowly with the S2000. Cheap competition may look like a good idea but it can hardly work in reality. I think that GB is nice example that such way don't work very well. Rally needs spectacular cars and those will never be really cheap. Those days are over.

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Originally Posted by Arganil

The main reason why this new category won't be cheap it's the constant factory developement that Skoda and Peugeot will put in it, because both manufactureurs will compete one against other in IRC and by doing it costs will certainly raise beyond any strict price limited by FIA.

We've seen it happen with the S2000 cars where late Fabias and 207 prices almost doubled the initial €150.000 proposed price.

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It won't be just these two ;) But that doesn't really matter. New S2000 homologations were banned two years a go and instead there are only more expensive 1.6T S2000 cars that's why they want something more affordable. S2000 never cost 150 thousand even on start...

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Originally Posted by Arganil

Instead of this expensive R5 cars FIA should introduce an amateur friendly 4wd category and promote their use in national and regional series.

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What more simple You want to invent than a stupid mechanical 4WD without centre diff using four McPherson struts and almost stock engine? The only thing which can make it cheaper is to cancel current system of homologations and to allow anyone build his own parts instead of buying them from the manufacturer.

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Originally Posted by Arganil

The place of manus like Skoda and Peugeot is the WRC, it doesn't make sense anymore to have a international series like IRC competing with WRC.

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Why? It's commercial series so it can use whatever rules they want. I don't see any problem with that. WRC is driven by FIA, IRC not. To survive IRC must come with interesting offer for its competitors or it dies, simple as that. WRC has its existence granted.

A small question... is Škoda out of WRC because it wants or because there is VW going in? The answer applies globally.

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Originally Posted by Arganil

If manus won't have the capacity, financial or political, to enter WRC using WRC cars, then FIA should bring back a 2wd world series inside WRC, like it happen in the late 90's with Kit-cars.

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You don't see another part of the story. Through the years manufacturers joined into huge global companies which don't need competition of their own brands. You can't go back to twenty years a go. The number of really independent manufacturers now is really small.

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Originally Posted by Arganil

A WRC 2wd category using R3+ cars would be a much wiser step in order to sustain the so much needed WRC recovery.

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Only a fraction of real rally enthusiasts will go over the planet to watch R3 cars in action. Sorry, but this sport now is a promotion for car makers and it must attract large audience otherwise it turn into a forgotten hobby cup. The way for me is to allow much less strict rules for building cars. Why not allow small teams to build their own cars like in Dakar for example? There are many people capable of that who are now in rally-raids, hill-climbs, rallycross etc. where they can use their skills. Rally is closed for these true enthusiasts.

Let’s face it: we were not talking about R5 if there wasn’t IRC.

IRC was a great and bold move from Eurosport in times where FIA representatives, leaded by Mr. Mosley, were negligent over rally and WRC. It has showed that rally should be diversified and that the sport’s heritage is one of its major assets.

Profiting from the FIA’s indolence, IRC kept growing year after year, attracting new manufacturers and organizers, not only from Europe but around the world, becoming a rival series to WRC.

Mr. Todt and FIA’s present leaders should have this in mind, as their effort in order to restore WRC status seems authentic. It’s crucial that WRC will be the undisputed pinnacle of the sport and the sole series capable of attract manufacturers at an international level.

If manus like Skoda or Peugeot have marketing reasons that enable them to compete for the WRC title, then FIA should organize a complementary series inside the WRC, like it did in the late 90’s with the 2wd world cup.

Letting these manus, or others, get involved in a rivalry international series like IRC will make WRC, and ultimately the sport, weaker, not stronger, simply because there’s only room to one great international rally series.

This is not a question of being in favour or against concurrency; the resources involved at the sport are limited, therefore too precious to be wasted. We just need to see around: F1 hasn’t a rival series, Indycars were left alone after Formula Cart disappears and Superbike will probably end in a fusion with Moto GP.

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Originally Posted by Arganil

Let’s face it: we were not talking about R5 if there wasn’t IRC.

IRC was a great and bold move from Eurosport in times where FIA representatives, leaded by Mr. Mosley, were negligent over rally and WRC. It has showed that rally should be diversified and that the sport’s heritage is one of its major assets.

Profiting from the FIA’s indolence, IRC kept growing year after year, attracting new manufacturers and organizers, not only from Europe but around the world, becoming a rival series to WRC.

Mr. Todt and FIA’s present leaders should have this in mind, as their effort in order to restore WRC status seems authentic. It’s crucial that WRC will be the undisputed pinnacle of the sport and the sole series capable of attract manufacturers at an international level.

If manus like Skoda or Peugeot have marketing reasons that enable them to compete for the WRC title, then FIA should organize a complementary series inside the WRC, like it did in the late 90’s with the 2wd world cup.

Letting these manus, or others, get involved in a rivalry international series like IRC will make WRC, and ultimately the sport, weaker, not stronger, simply because there’s only room to one great international rally series.

This is not a question of being in favour or against concurrency; the resources involved at the sport are limited, therefore too precious to be wasted. We just need to see around: F1 hasn’t a rival series, Indycars were left alone after Formula Cart disappears and Superbike will probably end in a fusion with Moto GP.

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Sorry but again I have to disagree. Manufacturers needs publicity. You can never get so much publicity for winning some cup inside a higher competition (like to win SWRC). The overall winner will always get multiply more attention even if it's a rally of different series. There are always only few manufacturer contenders for the overall glory and it has always been like that. It's nothing new.

For manufacturer like VAG or PSA with different brands it is much better to fight for victories in two different series than to have them in same series competing with each other. It doesn't matter one is in different class. The average Joe don't see it. He sees that Citroën DS3 is ten places higher placed than Peugeot 208. Tell me any benefit of that for PSA? There is none. But if they can say we won a Rally GB with DS3 and a Tour de Corse with Peugeot 208 it's entirely different.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Please show me good photo of the rear suspension and arms etc before I make a comment saying oh boy.

Also what motor? Old EJ20 92 x 78 or the new whatever motor with 86mm bore and 86 stroke?

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I would imagine it is the ol' EJ20. Does the current STI (japanese spec, pretty sure only the 2.5 is available worldwide) even offer the new engine? (that is the new FJ20, correct? as found in the BRZ). And also if it is, I'm not sure if R4 homologation would allow the use of an engine that doesn't appear in the road car. Rumour's are that the next WRX will feature the new direct injection engine... either in 2.0 or 1.6 guise apparently.

I'm wondering if this R4 spec is going last. Mitsubishi don't look like their going to make another Evo, so that just leaves Subaru to fill the category, which wouldn't be bad for them, particularly if, like people are saying here, R5 becomes expensive and out of reach for privateers. Who else could make an R4 car? VW could do an R4 version of the Golf R... I guess, but I doubt that would ever happen.
What makes me really curious is that this R4 car has come out of Japan, and Prodrive haven't even seemed to have so much as touched the R4 specs. Could Subaru finally be ending their relationship with Prodrive and doing it out of their own backyard?

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Please show me good photo of the rear suspension and arms etc before I make a comment saying oh boy.

Also what motor? Old EJ20 92 x 78 or the new whatever motor with 86mm bore and 86 stroke?

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Have you seen the R4catalog John? They are upgraded arms with bearings not bushings and the have weld-in upper strut mounts to increase travel, kinda like what I think you did for DaveK. So they are better but I think it's only another 1-2" travel so not a lot better.

http://www.sti.jp/e/competitor/r4_pa...rtscatalog.pdf

Slightly off topic, but since John brought up the bore x stroke thing again...
Also after our conversation 2 weeks ago John I was doing some research that I want to try. Subaru made a 1.6l block with an 87mm bore and short stroke. The 79mm crank from a us 2.5l engine, factory length rods and custom pistons. Displacement will be just over 1.9l so it should rev a bit still with a 34mm restrictor, leaving terrible final drive options as the last hurdle...

Hazza555): Engine regulation under R4 are same as for N4. No different engine possible.

TyPat107, janvanvurpa: On our "asphalt" I also noticed the bumping rear axle on all hatchback Imprezas Gr.N. The behavior of an R4 for example on landings of jumps looked much better by eye.

From Mirek... "The way for me is to allow much less strict rules for building cars. Why not allow small teams to build their own cars like in Dakar for example? There are many people capable of that who are now in rally-raids, hill-climbs, rallycross etc. where they can use their skills. Rally is closed for these true enthusiasts."

I total agree with this.

I think the FIA need to rewrite the rulebook regarding manufacturer 'consent'.

In my opinion, the new ‘R’ rules look good, but every new car needs manufacturer consent/homologation approval before that model is eligible to for competition.

If the FIA dropped the consent, then anyone could be able to develop a rally car within the particular R rule they have entered, providing the base model has reached it’s homologation quota. To equalize the cars, a list of approved aftermarket parts namely shocks, brakes, turbos, 4WD systems etc must be used.

This would I believe would open up the possibility to see numerous marques enter the WRC.
You, me, Tommi Makinen Racing, Possum Bourne Motorsport, M-Sport, MEM, Kronos, Prodrive, etc could take any car, stick on the FIA approved parts, safety gear, and then go rallying.

So for example, if Tommi Makinen Racing developed an Alfa Romeo MiTo using the approved FIA parts then that car should be eligible to compete in WRC rounds in whatever class it has been developed...R1, R2, R3, WRC etc

If the car does well, I’m sure the parent company would take an interest and maybe throw money to develop it further. Plus the potential for customer cars would be there as well… Alfa Romeo UK Rally Team, Alfa Romeo Brazil Rally Team etc.

I can also see the R-GT class also benefiting from this approach. Under the current rules, Lotus is the only manufacturer who has taken up the challenge to develop a rally car. Under the ‘no consent’ approach then we could see some amazing cars enter this class. Sure, these cars would get their bums kicked on gravel rallies, but the thought of an Aston Martin, Maserati, Dodge Viper, (or Bentley Continental!!!) in the right hands on Monte or Corsica would be fantastic.

The BRC is allowing cars to be built to an R category spec for 2013 that has not gone through the very expensive FIA passport homologation etc. There are specific criteria, but it is a good test.

FIA need to cancel the world rally car category entirely and let rallying be R categories only. That way it brings rallying closer to the road car.

ie comparable to how it was with GpA & N era.

Then let the manufacturers build to the R category rules.

It could well happen if R5 becomes popular, and then with time the 4WD conversion and body kitting to R5 can be cancelled. Unless of course the road car is 4WD and flared out with wide arches.