No to both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
- hasn't been like this for last 3-4 years
- it can potentially result in national rallies dominated by 2-3 drivers who can afford the cars instead of the large armies of R5 that are there now
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No to both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
- hasn't been like this for last 3-4 years
- it can potentially result in national rallies dominated by 2-3 drivers who can afford the cars instead of the large armies of R5 that are there now
Well, all those Monza shows, GFOS, with their own drivers, 3 sold cars, out of which 2 have also taken part in show events and nationals . M-Sport still has the largest number of"out of the series starts" in this generation. And they will keep it, probably.
*There aren`t so many R5s like some people tend to think, basing their opinions on their regions, but the world is bigger.
*New WRC can be succesfully beaten by a R5, (Gross vs O. Solberg, Fiesta 17 vs Polo R5).
*Those countries that allow them now, mostly allow them outside of the championship so again, no harm there..
*Great for fans who can`t allow experiencing a WRC round themselves.
One thing is car other is car + official driver.
M-Sport official drivers don't run.
Bottas was fifth in Arctic RallyQuote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
EDIT: I remembered wrong Katsuta in Itäralli. He won that just with a slight margin, but was first on the road in snowy conditions.
On show events, they do/did. Ostberg also falls in that category.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
I can't help but quote myself from some month ago:Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
They were only now allowed to enter the cars to national rallies and France and Italy. Also the Ypres WRC parallel event was created for this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Although, Neuville already started Autoglym rally in Finland 2017.
Like I've said earlier, I see this as a positive thing, a chance for people to see WRC cars and drivers when the series doesn't run an event in their country (which is partially true in the case of Italy and France when their WRC rallies are hosted on islands). Just as long as they're kept away from the championship points, there's no harm done.
Are you guys suggesting an R5 car is not slower than WRC17 car?
Cause it almost sounds like that. Sure a better driver in R5 can beat worse one in WRC. Heck in right conditions even "worse" driver can beat WRC in R5 (lately Sweden powerstage first run with Hutunen, Kopecky numerous times on SSS on tarmac).
That doesn't change the fact that given similar drivers and normal circumstances WRC driver easily wins. If both cars are allowed then the one with more money wins.
Running them outside normal national classification is good and fixes this issue.
Doesn't fix the other issue of using this as "exploit" to circumvent testing rules.
This in turn leads to inceased cost by manufacturers. Listening to the teams, testing is by far the most effective use of money when it comes to improving performance. Though it has its limitations as C3 showed.
We already have half the teams in WRC running only 2 cars regularly. Surely we don't want further cost increase? Say Hyundai and Toyota that have money use them on additional testing (each with their own exploit) . Citroen to stay competetive for drivers title abandons 3rd car. But we should be happy cause we see a WRC car with manu driver on some national rally with very limited media coverage and no competition? (at least in Estonia there will be competition)
------
As you are well aware of, all the stages and SD of Rally Monte Carlo are in France, so this was a particularly terrible example.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yup, with those not-so talented drivers, there is almost a chance for everyone. They will never dominate the scenery anyway and take part of it without earning points, mostly. Many nationals can say also that those few R5 are too expensive and fast for guys with old N`s. Next there is a significant difference between old R5s vs new R5s or evolutions, we already have that with the evo vs non-evo versions, not to mention the Polo r5. And in the end...what are local championships with people competing with R5s made from? Usually just wealthy people enjoying themselves, ofc they want to win etcetc, but theirs or nobody else`s life quality suffers from it...and the ones with real talent shine out even brighter.
The cars are there so let them be used like cars should be used like: driven.
Jari Huttunen
@HuttunenRacing
2 min2 minuuttia sitten
Next step: Finnish Rally Championship Riihimäki Ralli on 25th of May with Hyundai i20 WRC. “The feeling is very good and we are trying to get more mileage and build confidence in this rally.” #rally
BOOM! Go Jari!
So maybe they are testing him as a possible candidate for the NORF?
If it hasn't been decided already...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
It's not the first time Huttunen drives that car. I'm sure the team is fully aware of his capabilities, even without the Riihimäki entry.
Such a surprise! And sadly I can’t go spectate the event...
For sure there´s gonna be changes... Good for Jari.Quote:
Originally Posted by Essaj
Rally GB to leave Wales? The main story in this week's MN is WRC Promoter's desire for the event to visit other parts of the UK - otherwise the British round's future could be in doubt. https://t.co/jjpoaUSHlW
And now you can see it online: https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...-gb-wrc-future
Wales Rally GB should make a short-term move to Northern Ireland for 2020 and then rotate around Britain to safeguard its World Rally Championship future, says the WRC Promoter.
The 2020 calendar will be discussed at Friday's meeting of the WRC Commission in Geneva.
Corsica and Germany are expected to drop off the calendar to make way for returns to Japan and Kenya, putting more pressure on European events to earn the right to be on the calendar.
To retain one of those slots, the WRC Promoter favours a move to Northern Ireland next season, followed by a process of rotating Britain's premier rally around UK regions.
WRC Promoter's Oliver Ciesla told Autosport: "Britain is one of the big markets where we would definitely like to be with the WRC.
"There's a huge fan base and lots of tradition.
"But we are running this event, not in the heart of the country where the fans are.
"We have been pushing for change and we are hopeful this can be achieved in the next year already."
There has been growing speculation of a possible switch to Belfast for next season and Ciesla said such a move would be vital for the rally's future at the sport's highest level.
He added: "Is a move to Northern Ireland key to GB's future? Yes. I would say it is key [to the future].
"If you look in the long-term perspective, I do not see a long-term calendar where we continue to go to Wales again and again.
"Northern Ireland is of interest [to the WRC]. I don't want to say this is necessarily a long-term plan, but to go for a while or once could be an interesting variation for Rally GB.
"Maybe [there is] a model inside the UK moving from one location to another; it's an idea that's been circulated recently and it is very appealing to us.
"It would deliver on the notion to bring as much change and entertainment and to reach out to many destinations to keep this passion for rallying alive in many locations."
A WRC event ran in the Republic of Ireland in the late 2000s, but Northern Ireland's only major internatoonal event has been the Circuit of Ireland, which was part of the European Rally Championship between 2014-16, but hasn't run since then over funding issues.
Rally GB clerk of the course Iain Campbell told Autosport that talks for a potential move to Northern Ireland have already started.
"Motorsport UK [British governing body, formally MSA] has been working with the Welsh Assembly, the WRC Promoter and the devolved governments of Northern Ireland and Scotland about securing the long-term future for [the] WRC in the United Kingdom for some time now," Campbell said.
"The whole of the county offers the opportunity of providing a superb backdrop to the best rallying action in the world - through the special stages, the unique heritage and the passionate rally fans no matter where it is based.
"Our focus just now is on delivering an exciting challenge in October '19, encompassing new stages and a new rally base right in the heart of Llandudno."
What kind of roads would Northern Ireland offer? Would it be a tarmac rally? Do they have the public road legislation which passed in Wales and Scotland?
I would love to see the current WRC cars in Kielder and Grizedale.
I see 3 options:Quote:
Originally Posted by Essaj
- It has already been decided he will drive the WRC car in Rally Finnland and this is for him to get used to it
- He is a candidate and his performance/feedback from this rally will decide. (but I don't see anyone to compare with, he should beat Katsuta easily)
- This is for testing/data before homologating the new upgrades they plan before Finland
Last point can clearly also be combined with first two.
Said it a few years back that this is what GB event should do. Rotate around Wales, NI, Scotland and England. Even if it's 3-5yrs in each place so local business and sponsors can come on board it would be great - there's some fantastic roads all over the uk, tarmac and gravel. A rally in NI would definitely be a tarmac event which might suit for next year if Germany and Corsica go
Also remember Sporting Regulations 66.4.4Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
By using Huttunen, they gain more testing days (although competing does not reduce testing days, but most likely he'll do also testing in addition to the events).Quote:
For Manufacturers, 7 additional test days may be allocated to each team in addition to Art. 66.4.2.
These additional days will only be applicable to guest drivers who have not been nominated to score points
up to the requested testing date in the Manufacturers Championship in the previous or current year. Teams
should advise the FIA of any guest drivers’ test, by email, five days in advance, with copy to all other
registered teams (no test form required). The test must comply with articles 66.1 and 66.2.
Toyota can also now use Hänninen as a "guest" driver.
There's also rumors of Catalunya becoming an all tarmac event and Japan will be a tarmac rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
I remember Catalunya on tarmac around Lloret and it was really great.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Catalunya has to be now imo, we need more tarmac. I like the idea of a mixed event but not when there's maybe only 2 full tarmac events in the championship. It would be a shame to lose Germany over SardiniaQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I think that to have a mixed event is great - if it's a real mixed event (not what Catalunya is now).
Funding is the big issue for Rally GB. It's basically only because of backing from the Welsh Govt (Visit Wales) that the rally has continued there for so long.
Parts of England and Scotland have the forests, and N.Ireland has the roads, but do their regions have enough interest in rallying to provide the money to make it happen ?
N.Ireland certainly has the interest, but as seen with the Circuit of Ireland event, it cant always find the funding to keep it running.
PS. As for the type of rally, it would really have to be tarmac-only in N.I.
Eddie it's big difference to seak money for World-level event (no matter the sport) and anything more local/regional. You can't automatically compare that. Of course I don't know the state of things in Northern Ireland but I can imagine that it can be actually easier to fund a big world event than anything smaller.
I would somewhat disagree about the ease of securing proper funding. Sure it's more attractive to be part (as a sponsor) of a truly global event than some local happening, but the size of the investment is also something else, which narrows the pool of potential partners quite a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Seeing the number of organizers who are interested to join the WRC calendar, the return on investment must be quite good at the moment. ;)
It would be extremely sad if Corsica and Germany would be dropped from calendar permanently. Both are spectacular rallies, Corsica has multiple nice route options - this year e.g. SS7 north from Bastia was really nice. Also Germany in vineyards is really special. For multiple reasons WRC should have more tarmac rallies overall. Good that Japan is coming in. Even Australia has a lot of nice mountain tarmac roads e.g. near to Brisbane, etc. Now WRC has way too many gravel rallies. Maybe it would be time to bring back the idea of rotating rallies every season in different countries and local areas, instead of killing the WRC spirit completely from some countries.
As it has been proved a few times, rotating events does not work.
IMHO, you need a few fixed Tarmac Rallies, i.e: Monte-Carlo (yeah OK I know it's with snow/ice but you get the idea), Corsica, Spain, Germany & now Japan. As for the other events, as suggested, rotate Rally GB around UK & Ireland so when it comes to Ireland, it will be a tarmac rally. Also you can put each year a different Tarmac rally- once (just throwing it in as an example) Bulgaria, another time- San-Remo, the next year Ypres rally, after that Barum Czech rally Zlin, and so on.
It's super exciting for us fans to fantasize with a different calendar every year, but in real life it's a tough job to put up the infrastructure for a WRC event. It works best when you can keep the same level year after year instead of building it up and tearing it down every year. Also many contracts (financial partners, roads etc) are often better when they are multi-annual instead of just a one-off.
It's relevant here though as the Circuit of Ireland is the oldest and best known rally on the island of Ireland and the people are massive rally fans there. And yet it has struggled to continue, even despite being part of the ERC quite recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
There is also the political situation in N.Ireland where power-sharing has broken down they don't have a functioning executive. I cant see their civil servants considering spending the tax-payers money on a rally (even a WRC one).
In rotation there is many limitations yes, but also many options how to do it. It does not meant that rallies would have to be year by year, but mix matching longer contracts in calendar we would reach fresh calendar for every year. It could be that agreement with some rally would be e.g. 5 years on, then 4 years off, then again 5 years on, etc. This way co-operation contracts etc would be easier to manage and forecast, especially when the rally would be e.g. national level rally when not having WRC status. Other options are e.g. that rally organizers (from key functions) would start to act more as none location based organizations, so e.g. when the rally A would be off from WRC calendar in next three year but there would be rally B added to WRC calendar to that position from neighboring country, this rally A organizer core team could take the key responsibilities from rally B.
You must also realize that it's impossible to make this long-term agreements with rallies. The whole series could change a lot in that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Japé
Hard to agree on that one. Allowing current WRC cars in national series is like allowing F1’s in F3 local championships; it simply doesn’t make sense. Even if they don’t take championship points, allowing them to get the overall win on a national event it’s a disrespect for drivers and teams involved in local championships, as it’s impossible to match the WRC car pace with a R5, which is the most balanced and well succeed category for national use. The only way I believe it’d be fair is to allow them to run on demo mode, without getting stage times or using the complete route (like apparently it’ll be done in Ypres).Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
How much does a local event overall win hold value?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
And on the contrary, think about the value a WRC car gives to the rally organizers – I've already heard one person say "I haven't gone to a Finnish championship rally in 12 years but I'll go to Riihimäki now that they have two WRC cars"
There will always be the richest guys doing events with a WRC, a bit less richer doing them in R5s ( again, like i said, there`s starting to be a huge difference among them also), wealthy guys in Protos or old A`s/N`s and poorer guys sitting out or trying it in 2wd. Local events are mostly for people enjoying themselves and will never-ever be equal, although they have different classes for all...
It's different from country to country...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
In Belgium we had WRC cars allowed 10 years ago. We had 2 people fighting for the win. Normally you could predict the complete top 5 correctly just because of the huge difference between the cars. Now without WRC cars destroying the competition, we have an average of 15 R5 cars in all BRC events, with more than 5 drivers capable of winning. All thanks to the more "reasonable" price of R5, and more equal competition. And of course thanks to having a good promotor. Most (if not all) top drivers in Belgium are driving only with sponsorship money, without own budget (or very little own budget). Right now most organizers have doubled the spectator figures compared to 10 years ago.
About the value of winning a local or national event, it's as big as the competition is. In Rallye de Wallonie few weeks ago, the difference between first and second was only 3 seconds. Last year in 5 of the 9 BRC events, the difference between first and second was less than 10s at the end of the rally. Closest win was Haspengouw with a 1,2s difference between Princen and Verschueren. With such competition, people are getting more excited and start following the sport more closely. Winning as only WRC car with 5 minutes advantage will be soon forgotten indeed... ;)
For me it's a no-brainer, I prefer to see the WRC cars only in WRC.