Israel refuses peace negotiations

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Apparently your Goverment thinks otherwise.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Gov.../1076153918137

BTW Aren't Finnish Troops part of the UN "Peacekeeping Force" in Israel? Actually one of the casualties of the accidental Israeli shelling of the UN Bunker was a Finnish Soldier.

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They are in Lebanon, not Israel. Israel hasn't much respect for UN. In addition to the bombing, I saw on TV a video where an armoured car of the Finnish UN troops tried to stop a caterpillar of the Israeli military in Lebanon. The caterpillar just pushed the armoured car aside and the Israelis on it flipped the middle finger to the UN troops. Made me quite angry. The Israelis were probably lucky that the UN soldiers are prohibited from using their weapons except in extreme cases of self-defence.

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Originally Posted by Eki

They are in Lebanon, not Israel. Israel hasn't much respect for UN. In addition to the bombing, I saw on TV a video where an armoured car of the Finnish UN troops tried to stop a caterpillar of the Israeli military in Lebanon. The caterpillar just pushed the armoured car aside and the Israelis on it flipped the middle finger to the UN troops. Made me quite angry. The Israelis were probably lucky that the UN soldiers are prohibited from using their weapons except in extreme cases of self-defence.

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The Israelis don't respect the UN at all, neither do they respect any foreigners 'interfering' in their business like the Swedish girl portrayed in the blog above. Like the Arabs they only respect force. They'll respect the UN when UN troops are able to defend themselves but then they won't accept UN troops on their borders in the first place if they have that power.

Its a rare day indeed when any Israeli soldier for example is ever found guilty of killing/wounding foreigners like James Miller, Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie let alone Palestinians despite strong evidence of guilt. There's always a convenient excuse to be found and a rather lazy approach to prosecuting the cases. Things really haven't changed much since the USS Liberty got strafed and bombed repeatedly by the Israeli air force and navy in the 6 day war even after they had realised it was an American vessel. Obviously no Israeli was ever punished for that 'mistake'.

They also have a habit of targeting foreign press reporters especially when fighting flares up. I remember an article by the rather fearless Marie Colvin during the second intafada who stated in her reports that there was a definite culture of targeting the press within the Israeli forces to the point that journalists felt it was safer to remove 'press' stickers on their cars to prevent the Israelis from singling them out.

I'm sure that people will claim that the Israeli army is a disciplined fighting force and they are right, it is. This makes it all the more difficult to believe that the targeting of the press etc is not an ingrained part of army culture.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

accidental shelling

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LOL, since when was shelling anything accidental?

Still living in your state of denial?

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Originally Posted by fousto

Well perhaps you could give us a ratio of suicide bombers to population your country vs Israel and then you just may get a idea of why they could get provoked at Tope's statement.

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Ever heard of FARC or tamil Tigers' use of suicide bombers? Hamas are no way the biggest users of suicide bombers.

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Originally Posted by Eki

They are in Lebanon, not Israel. Israel hasn't much respect for UN. In addition to the bombing, I saw on TV a video where an armoured car of the Finnish UN troops tried to stop a caterpillar of the Israeli military in Lebanon. The caterpillar just pushed the armoured car aside and the Israelis on it flipped the middle finger to the UN troops. Made me quite angry. The Israelis were probably lucky that the UN soldiers are prohibited from using their weapons except in extreme cases of self-defence.

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Where can I see that video? Sounds like the kind of Vid that would brighten up my day!

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Where can I see that video? Sounds like the kind of Vid that would brighten up my day!

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I saw in on Finnish TV. I tried to search it on the internet but without success.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I saw in on Finnish TV. I tried to search it on the internet but without success.

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Next time you see it try and grab it and post it on youtube.
Call it the 127,897th time that the U.N. has proven itself a useless organization.

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Originally Posted by Eki

No, I mean what's wrong in resistance? There was resistance when the Nazis tried to expand their "Third Reich" to Poland. I don't see much difference in today's Israel and the past "Third Reich". They both want/wanted more "lebensraum" (room to live in) and have a "winner takes it all" attitude. Neither are/were ready to compromise and share.

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Eki, if Israel was actually like that, the Palestinians would be gone from the West Bank - either they would have left or been killed by the IDF. I can tell you that many among the more extreme portions of Israeli society want exactly that.

The problem here is not Israel's government, Eki. They want a peaceful solution because after nearly 60 years of war, one has to think that the Israelis have had enough of it and want to go on living their lives. But the Palestinians don't seem to want a peaceful solution, and both want to have their way. That isn't just an Israeli problem.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Call it the 127,897th time that the U.N. has proven itself a useless organization.

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what's a useful organisation? or did you believe too much of Gingrich's contract with America? :laugh:

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

They want a peaceful solution because after nearly 60 years of war, one has to think that the Israelis have had enough of it and want to go on living their lives.

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You'd think so wouldn't you.

However apart from the odd exception like Oslo where I think both sides tried to reach a real agreement (and did) or the Camp David talks at 2000 the Israelis have been very very good at outwardly looking as if they want peace whilst quietly agreeing to expand Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories and confiscating Palestinian land and doing anything to prevent a real and lasting settlement that gives away too much.

Its very clever really, we see Israeli diplomats prepared to smile and shake hands for the cameras whilst the Palestinians see them offering to give with one hand while taking with the other and break off talks. I guess a lot of people get fooled by that as your statement suggests.

I'm not suggesting that the Palestinians are angels in this of course, they are more than guilty of torpedoing peace talks but the suggestion that the Israelis are the ones wanting peace and the Palestinians not is rather laughable.

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Originally Posted by SOD

or did you believe too much of Gingrich's contract with America? :laugh:

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And that is a bad thing?
Reasons to be a conservative:
I pay Taxes.
I own various businesses.
I have seen war.
I have lived in various countries.
I know what it is like to be poor.
I have seen 1st hand how efficient Gov. Agencies can be.
I have lost friends to Islamic/Facist terrorism.
I have lost Family and Friends to Communist/Socialist Terrorists.

And the main reason that I am a conservative:
I can think for myself!

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

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I can think for myself!

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and so the rest of us who find your BS wearisome.

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Originally Posted by SOD

and so the rest of us who find your BS wearisome.

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HAHAHA
And who might "us" be?

Typical of those on the left who cannot debate facts or issues.

^ Lol

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

HAHAHA
And who might "us" be?

Typical of those on the left who cannot debate facts or issues.

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I can't say that you have added any facts or issues to this debate :p :.

I don't regard myself as either right wing (conservative) nor left wing (liberal) however I know for a fact that I can think and make decisions for myself........... , even if I can't spell for nuts....

Another article to ponder about Jewish Settlements on the eve of GWB's visit.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/isr...554655218.html

Again as usual a small quote:

"THE Israeli Government has told a court that it does not want to reveal the true extent of Jewish settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories because the information would damage its image abroad, a local newspaper has reported."

"The newspaper said that the report showed both veteran settlements and newer "outposts" had been built extensively without legal permits on land deemed as state land by the Israeli military courts and on the private property of local Palestinians."

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

HAHAHA
And who might "us" be?

Typical of those on the left who cannot debate facts or issues.

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yes.
I have also+ noticed it often in life that whenever you meet a really stupid person in life, he will tend to have lefty views on politics.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

yes.
I have also+ noticed it often in life that whenever you meet a really stupid person in life, he will tend to have lefty views on politics.

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It's probably just because you consider people who don't agree with you stupid.

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Originally Posted by Eki

It's probably just because you consider people who don't agree with you stupid.

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Succinctly put.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I pay Taxes.
I own various businesses.

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What, you own a business in the USA and you pay taxes??????

You need to find yourself a better accountant :p .

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Originally Posted by Camelopard

What, you own a business in the USA and you pay taxes??????

You need to find yourself a better accountant :p .

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Stop listening to lefty propaganda.
The richest 3 out of 100 Americans are now paying close to the same amount in income taxes as the other 97% of workers combined.

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Originally Posted by Eki

It's probably just because you consider people who don't agree with you stupid.

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If they explain their points well, then not so. Unfortunately I have yet to meet a lefty who is able to do that.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Stop listening to lefty propaganda.
The richest 3 out of 100 Americans are now paying close to the same amount in income taxes as the other 97% of workers combined.

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Member of the group? LOL
They also make much more than the other 97% combined.
Ask Lou...

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Originally Posted by TOgoFASTER

They also make much more than the other 97% combined.

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So?
What is so wrong with being successful?
What is wrong is a higher tax rate for those who are.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

So?
What is so wrong with being successful?
What is wrong is a higher tax rate for those who are.

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You're not one of them. LOL
Love all the successful mega rich internet posters that have time in their busy days to post nonsense.
I'd go for a flat tax with no bail outs for your rich friends nor written in cheats. Also no more corporate welfare for those so privleged as now exists to their benefit alone. Problem is your fellow mega rich friends would not like it, as they love the safety net of the government dole out and tax loopholes when it comes their way.
We the PEOPLE not we the corporation.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

If they explain their points well, then not so. Unfortunately I have yet to meet a lefty who is able to do that.

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Maybe you just don't understand what they say.

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Originally Posted by TOgoFASTER

You're not one of them. LOL
Love all the successful mega rich internet posters that have time in their busy days to post nonsense.
I'd go for a flat tax with no bail outs for your rich friends nor written in cheats. Also no more corporate welfare for those so privleged as now exists to their benefit alone. Problem is your fellow mega rich friends would not like it, as they love the safety net of the government dole out and tax loopholes when it comes their way.
We the PEOPLE not we the corporation.

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Flat tax. Equal rate for everyone and no corporate Tax and I would be a Happy Camper.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Flat tax. Equal rate for everyone and no corporate Tax and I would be a Happy Camper.

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LOL

More examples of Collective Punishment by Israel against ordinary Palestinians:

http://news.smh.com.au/eu-urges-isra...0121-1n9y.html

As usual a small quote:

"The European Commission has urged Israel to restart fuel supplies to Gaza and open border crossings, saying that Israel's blockade would worsen the situation on the ground and not help prevent attacks.
"I have made clear that I am against this collective punishment of the people of Gaza," EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said in a statement." (my highlight and underlining)

Also here:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/war...764153359.html

Another perspective. this article is about an Israel who has been vilified by jewish settlers because of the tours that he conducts into Hebron.
"The man who attracts such hatred from the Hebron settlers has, at only 24, already led a remarkable life. He was described by the celebrated Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, to whom he acted as a guide in the city two years ago, as "one of the righteous this country has". He was a co-founder of Breaking the Silence, the growing group of dissident ex-soldiers – the core of whom served in Hebron at the peak of the intifada like him – who have testified on the persistent abuses they say the military has committed during the years of warfare.

Another perspective. this article is about an Israeli who has been vilified by jewish settlers because of the tours that he conducts into Hebron.

"Yehuda Shaul is a religious Israeli who served in the army. Now he runs guided tours highlighting the abuse of Palestinians. It's controversial and dangerous work – so hy does he do it? Donald MacIntyre finds out on a unique tragical history tour"

"The man who attracts such hatred from the Hebron settlers has, at only 24, already led a remarkable life. He was described by the celebrated Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, to whom he acted as a guide in the city two years ago, as "one of the righteous this country has". He was a co-founder of Breaking the Silence, the growing group of dissident ex-soldiers – the core of whom served in Hebron at the peak of the intifada like him – who have testified on the persistent abuses they say the military has committed during the years of warfare."

"An internal 2003 report produced by the Israel Defence Forces's civil administration cited a lengthy series of legal violations – mainly damage, break-ins and seizure of Palestinian property – by Hebron's Jewish settlers as they "consistently and systematically" worked to "establish and expand" their colony. "The leadership selects a target and broadcasts it a number of ways. Youths/teenagers burgle the building and even if they are driven away in the beginning, they eventually succeed. Youths/teenagers empty/burn the contents ... They enter through a common wall/the yard/narrow passageway between the properties without being noticed and begin to settle in." Adding that the activities of Jews in Hebron can be described as "if carried out under the protection of the Israeli regime", the report added: "The State of Israel looks very bad with regard to the rule of law in Hebron." "

"Certainly, since the beginning of the intifada, Palestinian militants have killed 17 members of the security forces and five civilians – including 10-month-old Shalhevet Pass, shot by a Palestinian sniper in 2001. In Hebron as a whole, according to the ACRI/B'Tselem report, the security forces killed 88 Palestinians in the same period "at least 46 of whom (including nine minors) were not taking part in hostilities at the time they were killed". In addition two Palestinians were killed by settlers, one of them 14-year-old Nasseem Jamjoum, gunned down at her home by settlers in 2003 on the rampage after the shooting of a soldier/settler outside the city. No one was indicted for that shooting. "

"As we pass to the left, leaving a manned Israeli checkpoint to the right, we come to the surreal lane where two Palestinian families still live amid a dozen settler families. We walk past the Abu Ayesha house, protected by wire mesh from the stones and garbage frequently thrown at it by the settlers. It was against this wire mesh that Jewish settler Yifat Alkobi pressed her face while repeatedly hissing "sharmuta" – whore – at her married Palestinian neighbour. The scene was caught in a video recording given to B'Tselem which shocked many Israeli viewers when it was shown on prime-time TV last January – including Tommy Lapid, the former Israeli Justice Minister who lost many of his family in the Holocaust. "In the years that preceded the Holocaust," he wrote, "behind shuttered windows hid terrified Jewish women, exactly like the Arab woman of the Abu-Ayesha family in Hebron." And where, according to testimony given by Taysir Abu Ayesha, Baruch Marzel broke into the house with 10 other settlers in the winter of 2002, beat him and attempted to drag him into the road before he was rescued by his stick-brandishing father.
And then we arrive at the end of the street and the home of Hani Abu Heikel, whose family was one of those who sheltered more than 400 of the Jews who survived the 1929 massacre. He says that the settlers from the neighbouring Al Bakri house have attacked his house with water pipes in the night, that his car has been attacked and burned four times and that in June most of the trees in the olive grove next to his house were ruined by being set on fire. When his son suggested to soldiers – some of whom, on this occasion, helped put the fire out – that they could identify the culprits by means of the ubiquitous cameras, he was told, says Mr Abu Heikel, that the cameras were for "security" – for the settlers' security, that is. The Abu Heikel family, a fixture of the Yehuda Shaul tours, are as pleased to see him as the settlers are displeased. "Yehuda, Yehuda," two-and-a-half-year-old Yara Abu Heikel shouts excitedly. The fact that Yehuda brings Israelis to the house has been, says Abu Heikel, especially valuable for his children. "I welcome it," he says. "I want them to know that the Israelis are not just the settlers. I wanted to show them that there are Jews who are not in conflict with us." "

Read the whole story here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ns-773018.html

Palestinians stage a mass breakout from the Gaza Ghetto:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...25/2146823.htm

"US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has called on Egypt to control its border with the Gaza Strip."

Gee what a suprise, guess she would have said the same thing about the Warsaw Ghetto in WWII.


'Collective punishment'

In New York, UN Security Council talks to hammer out a statement urging an end to the siege dragged on for a fourth day as Washington called for the text to be reworked.
The United States, Israel's staunchest ally, insists the blockade is an act of self-defence but other states have protested at what they term "collective punishment".


Has anyone here read Jimmy Carter's book "Peace not Aparthied"?

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Rani

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.

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The Jews had made themselves unpopular for other reasons before WW2 :)

Firing rockets into someone's house isn't the only way to annoy someone.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

The Jews had made themselves unpopular for other reasons before WW2 :)

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What reasons could that be?
Must be our long noses, huh?
Or is it the infatuation we have with money?
Could it be because we make Matzah bread with christian blood?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Are these your "unracist observations" again?

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Originally Posted by Rani

What reasons could that be?
Must be our long noses, huh?
Or is it the infatuation we have with money?
Could it be because we make Matzah bread with christian blood?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Are these your "unracist observations" again?

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How are we going to discuss something which involved race by it's nature without actually discussing the reasons which are by nature "racist" :mark:

In Australia the government took a lot of Aboriginal children away from their parents and gave them to white foster parents. Why? Because they thought the Aboriginal parents weren't fit parents because they believed that the aborigines were inferior. Is that racist? Hell yes! Am I racist for pointing it out? No.......

Would you rather have me point out the real reason Jews were persecuted or would you prefer to believe that Hitler was looking for a race to exterminate and opened up the "Dummies guide to different races" at a random page and just happened to pick the Jews by chance? :mark:

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Originally Posted by Rani

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.

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It seems that after using collective punishment for 50 years the Israelis still aren't learning that it doesn't work.

Targeted strikes against terrorists are fine but blockading an entire land and shutting down hospitals is counterproductive in just about every sense.

Are Israelis ever going to learn this very very simple lesson? Or perhaps the fact that they haven't learnt it despite ample time and opportunity suggests they won't. Rockets and continued attacks are partly the bitter harvest Israel reaps for their stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Rani

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.

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If you are suggesting that reminding us about the Holocaust will in some way make those of us who believe that Israel's response to Palestinian aggression is disproportionate think again, you are mistaken, I'm afraid. I see no meaningful connection.

The other point I would make is that the manner in which the Israeli government and certain supporters of it that one hears seek to lump comments against Israeli policy and anti-Semitism together is deeply distasteful.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

If you are suggesting that reminding us about the Holocaust will in some way make those of us who believe that Israel's response to Palestinian aggression is disproportionate think again, you are mistaken, I'm afraid. I see no meaningful connection.

The other point I would make is that the manner in which the Israeli government and certain supporters of it that one hears seek to lump comments against Israeli policy and anti-Semitism together is deeply distasteful.

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You'd think that with your flag now wouldn't you ;) :p

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Originally Posted by Daniel

You'd think that with your flag now wouldn't you ;) :p

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Yes, I only chose this flag because an older German one wasn't available. ;)