Actually Ferrari's championship chances weren't (potentially) lost, but stolen...there's a big difference!Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
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Actually Ferrari's championship chances weren't (potentially) lost, but stolen...there's a big difference!Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
Hamilton lost the title because he was too hot headed, because the car had an electronic problem and because the team chose the wrong strategy for him.
Honestly Hamilton had no chance to beat the BMWs and the Williams yesterday.
Ferrari has seen to that by getting Kmi and Felipe between Hamilton and the ones he was chassing. Finally they've got their strategy right when it mattered.
No they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
Ferrari's appeal never became reality!
It was the FIA who decided that there was enough proof to further inciminate McLaren.
Now who's still thinking here on the forum FIA wanted to have LH win the WCD ? as it seems now he might have lossed the championship due to illegal cars driving in front of him..and FIA allows it...they even admit the fuel was not ok !
..Again...Only the FIA can be blamed for making it the mess it has been this season...Not the teams...It's about time they come up with a new rulesbook during the winter..with 100% clear rules so there can't be any discussions and maybe some new people on the top too !
Assignment to Ron Dennis (and his blind followers):
Look up the phrase, "Gracious in defeat."
Next, submit a 1000 word paper on the benefit of how applying that phrase to your lives might make people look upon you more favorably. Be sure to contrast the meaning of the phrase with things such as mass-dampers, flexible floors, and fuel temperatures.
an interesting Motorsport phase...
True, but then again, BMW and Williams were running illegal cars for Brazil, and McLaren, like Ferrari after the first Stepneygate court case (less so after the second one), should rightly feel aggreived because their rivals are getting away with a clearly defined rule breach, which is hindering their title hopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
Having said that I'm quite happy for everyone to forget about it. IMO 2007 has a great champion through its tumultuous off-track shenanigans and controversies. Personally I'm looking towards 2008 already. :up:
Actually i read somewhere the car had a "neutral problem"--sorry forget where...sounds like he may have got the thing in the wrong gear, did not want to stall, tried neutral or whatever trying to find the right gear...once he did, then he ran pretty good.esp. at the end...but not nearly as spectacular as MS last race there....Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
they need no new rule book but enforce the existing ones. it says freaking ten degrees, not 11, not 12, not 14 or whatever but 10!Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Instead of issuing penalties on things that may have been they should focus on proof and fact. This whole mess indeed is FIAs fault.
No one can be sure of anything anymore. This leads to apeal and courtaction and endless discussion because everybody can hope to win a case these days even if there is no fact or get awy with stuff even when there is fact. stop this courtyard bulls**. Maybe there are too much lawyers in FIA.
the teams are not to blame (and even less the drivers) for playing this game the FIA set up themselfes.
Certainly. He should be grateful his drivers were still able to race after the court appearance. What is it with some English people accepting that Hamilton and the English Rugby team didn't win. First it was the Australian video ref and now it's Germans! Always with the Germans! :p Be happy that you were up there at the end with a chance of winning rather than being in the same position as Button and Rubens.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
Don't even try comparing Hamilton to MS, that would be blasphemy. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
Someone should do the calculations about how much it benefited the BMW's and the Williams this 2-4 C cooler fuel.
Take into account that it took the fuel at max.2 or 3 minutes to get to the legal temperature, that means 2 laps, where they might have got a fw tenths advantage over LH.
Impose a time penalty on them.
To make it even I would like BMW and Williams to contest the outcome of Fridays decision about Hamilton using to many sets of tires and impose a time penalty on him too.
Or maybe should all the teams appeal the outcome of the spying hearing and get McLaren thrown out together with their drivers, as rules say that it should be.
And while we are at it ban Bernie from the WMSC cause he clearly has nothing to do with the sporting side of the sport. :mad:
Quite true. Hamilton broke the rules and got away with a fine so why not a fine for the cars with cool fuel? :p Stupid rule though. Let them cool the fuel all they want. One less thing to regulate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
ya maybe a little to early..Give him a couple more years...don't think you will use the word "blasphemy" anymore than ioan...Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
At least one thing he already showed in comparisson to MS when it comes to deciding a championship in the last race...sportsmansship.....don't saw him make any attempts to run his rivals of the track....
You can't run them of track when you aren't on the track or anywhere close to them! :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Just remembered him in front of Kimi during qualifying! :D
A couple of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by electron
Firstly, the FIA and the race Stewards are NOT the same. The Stewards are independent of the FIA. Take a look at the events of the 2005 San Marino GP where the FIA appealed the decision of the Stewards. If the Stewards were under the control of the FIA, the FIA would simply overturn their decisions without the need to go to the FIA.
Secondly, the issue is not whether the fuel was over the 10 degree limit, but rather how accurate the taken measurements were. Clouding the issue is that there appeared to be a discrepancy between the FOM temperature reading and that of the FIA appointed weatherman. The regulations do not state which temperature is the only one to be used, further clouding the issue.
The stewards made the only decision they could with the data they had. If it was as black and white as you suggest, BMW and Williams would be gone already. It isn't, just like a lot of things in F1.
I was expecting something like this to come out afterwards...!!!
Although I'm still gutted for Hamilton, I don't think he'll want to accept the championship title this way and I would feel sorry for Kimi too. I don't think anything will come of this latest rule fiasco. However, Ferrari can't complain about people breaching rules and then whine when other people being prosecuted results in them losing out!
Someone needs to sort out these rules. There's either far faaar too many grey areas or the teams simply don't respect the system enough (and that's not all that suprising considering the inconsistencies of the FIA rulings). Both aspects need to be sorted to prevent the problems of this season affecting the next.
The stewards decision not to penalise the teams for having fuel that's too cool will be down to the fact that it's not exactly easy to regulate the temperature of a liquid on a hot day. Why have such a silly rule? Why not let the teams chill the fuel to whatever temperature they want? Then they'll all be "cheating" equally.Quote:
Originally Posted by slinkster
I have a question. I know that McLaren have informed FIA that they would appeal. Have they appealed yet?
I'm asking because after they were banned from 2007 WCC, Haug said that they would appeal, but did not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Apologies are offered.
I have sinned and will go lash myself 1,000 times...not my fault, though I did violate the rules, and will also fine myself 22k.... :D
I just got to reading how hamilton was saying it was his best race, how he is going to win WDC next year, stuff from RD about how the gearbox problem was not Hamilton's fault and the pre-race stuff about how he was born to win and so forth....in the process, I accidentally took a sip of kool aid reserved for the Mac crew and benie...and before i knew it...I was hollerring Appeal, Appeal, Benie will "campaign" Max for its success.....then i made the post....
(However, the effects of the kool aid must be wearing off, as I am beginning to wonder how that glitch occurred, when it did and wonder if OUR MAN, THE ONE TRUE HOPE and PROTECTOR OF ENGLISH VIRGINITY stuck it in the wrong gear or what??--opps, I guess I better drink some coffee until the kool aid is all gone from my body....... :eek: )
An absolute joke, you couldn't make it up, ( well actually you could). I've completely lost faith in the sport and F1A. As much as I wanted Hamilton to win it, this isn't the way, however there are precedents. Remember 1986 WRC and Markku Alen was champion for about 10-12 days, then San Remo results were anulled. I just hope the F1A become more transparent regarding rules and consistent with the applying of them. At the moment there are different penalties all seemingly on a whim; team, drivers, fines, etc; Nobody knows were they stand, a mess.
This alone should stop any appeal. With such a loosely written regulation it's obvious there are going to be discrepancies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Aren't the fueling rigs regulated and controlled by the FIA? I would think that they would simply supply a standard cooler with appropriate temperature monitoring devices. Done properly they could easily make sure all cars run fuel at the same temp all the time.
It won't happen. The results will stand as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Well, you would think...but with the FIA ,Max and Benie...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I would think it would be crazy, but then they did appoint the scrutineers.....but if they stop and think from the money point of view, they will have completely screwed themselves for at least a year or two, and leaving no doubts about what is really the goal of the "leaders"...
And hey if 22k was okay for RD for the use of the tires, then 22k per car ought to be okay for RD as well on the fuel...so I say put the money on the table, and let us go home.
I fully expect it to stand, my problem is with the handing out of penalties, and how they decide on the severity. It seems to be arbitury, no consistentcy. Surely the time has come to re write the penalties and punishments. Say BMW and Williams had been thrown out team and drivers; what about the McLaren team being penalised but the drivers weren't, then on Friday McLaren are fined, no consistency, as if they are decided on a whim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
This appeal is utterly ridiculous. It ought to be thrown out straight away and not even discussed. The decision has been made and Raikkonen should be champion. If Hamilton hadn't made a mistake and then had a technical problem, this probably wouldn't even be an issue. It was an apparent bit of McLaren unreliability that cost Hamilton the title, so for the team to launch an appeal aimed at winning him the title now is pushing things much too far.
"It would be a joke, and we've had too many already," he told Spanish radio station Cadena Ser. "If something like that happened, it would end up burying the sport."
- Fernando Alonso
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581
Very good point.
Why are they appealing? Does Hamilton want to win it in the court...idiotic.
Fact is, he made 2 big mistakes in the last 2 races to lose a 17 point lead and also had bad luck with gearbox (finally had to have had some bad luck) and Kimi (and Massa too ;) ) did a better job and won it.
Especially considering the fact that they are lucky to still be fielding cars in the 07 and 08 seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Quite, although that was as a result of a similarly arbitrary decision that didn't go their way. Now they want another one to go in their favour. Not the best move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Erm... excuse me if im wrong, but didnt Hamilton also have a tyre 'problem' that massively helped him, but was treated with only a 15k fine? I believe that is what u call a double standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
Many of us have know that for a long time: double standard = Ron Dennis.Quote:
Originally Posted by SparkyKate
Well, that would clear the debris from the site and leave the possibility of building something new in the future! :sQuote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
ClarkFan
Don't get overexcited about the advantage that 2-4 degrees brings (remember, they are allowed 10). Gascoyne was quoted as citing 5 horsepower, pretty much nothing against a 750 HP baseline for a F1 engine. If you found a way to add 5 hp to your street car (against a far lower baseline), you wouldn't feel the difference in acceleration and even a stopwatch would be hard pressed to distinguish the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanweb
If the fuel temps made a difference of 0.5 seconds a lap I would be surprised; 0.2 sec would be more like it.
ClarkFan
McLaren should just forget this season and move on. These appeals have no sence, and only make McLaren more desperate. Like FIA takes such a decision back. No way!
And the difference would only be for the time that it takes the fuel to reach ambient temperature. I don't think that could have been many laps. The rest of the car was at 40+ degrees (in its coolest parts) and had a mass of about 550kg compared with the fuel's 80 or less.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkFan
That's what happens when one thinks he has 2 right hands when reality is that one of them is however the left hand! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
Speculation is that it would be starting at 5Hp diminishing to nothing over 5 or so laps after refuelling , perhaps at best , a .2 advantage to start , so it wouldn't amount to as much as a second each time . It might gain you 2.5 seconds in the race , on a 3 stopper .
Being that it was frighteningly hot , and that much was said about how much the darker colour of the asphalt laid in August of this year was affecting the heat , I am not surprised about how temperatures between officials varied , and how they came to dismiss this as not being a breach , in the conditions .
A few years ago , at Interlagos , didn't Coulthard get away with a too thin skid plate , as it was shown on camera that he rode over those awful bumps up the hill more often than some ?
An on-camera scrape over the curbing has saved a few penalties over the years , showing there was no intent to run too low , but rather a "force majeure" as cause for a technical breach .
Here , we not only have discrepancies in official readings , but also a temperature that was rising in the sun , and likely rising slower in the shade of the garage .
It would be interesting to see how close others came to the magic 10 degrees below ambient . We might find all of them pretty close to the line . In fact , I would expect it .
A breach , yes , but one that remains a bit foggy , if one dosen't have a corroborating reading on another gauge .
So , if 4 or so degrees could gain you 2.5 seconds , in which an F1 car can travel a heck of a distance , would that distance or time be enough to try it ?
Alonso kept his points because he sold out his team. Hamilton isn't in the position to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
do you realize what any of the teams would pay to gain 5 hp today, with the engine homologation?Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkFan
it is NOT nothing.