Yeah, you're right. I'll give that ignore button to someone who needs it really really bad.
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Yeah, you're right. I'll give that ignore button to someone who needs it really really bad.
heelntoe,Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
This is a great thread, but one name that’s being left out is Mazda. How do you see them factoring into the equation? As I’m sure you’re aware, Mazda’s basically footing the bill for the media buys, so the question comes up: why?
Here’s what I’m looking at and wondering if CCWS’ schedule isn’t beginning/attempting to mirror it, despite all the idiocy that appears to be going on.
Mazda’s FY2006 Retail Unit Sales by Region
North America: 380K
Europe: 301K
Japan: 260K
China: 129K
Other: 230K
Global Sales Volume: 1,301K
I think most would agree that Mazda is fully capable of keeping CC afloat if they wanted to, so the real question, as it appears to me, is: do they want to?
The problem I see with them abandoning CCWS is what other vehicle is available to activate their brand with motorsports? As bad as CC is domestically, it still dwarfs the exposure they would generate simply through a few cars in Speed WC, GA, Star Mazda and ALMS - and that’s just in NA.
I can see Honda settling on the IRL and Toyota on NASCAR here in the states, but they’re also running F1, Mazda isn’t. So it’s not appearing to be a question of “if” they would abandon CCWS - but where would they go?
However, a version of CCWS operating to it’s full potential, would seem to be an ideal scenario for Mazda to activate their brand both domestically and globally - and that’s why I’m having a hard time imagining they’ll just let it all crumble. To me it’s too perfect a fit to ignore and like I said, I can't see leaving Mazda out of the discussion.
-John
Dr. Jack: What the h--- are you doing on this forum? You make far too much sense to be on here. Just kidding, there are a lot of very good posts by others.
The Capt. as dictator. He is just about the only one in OWR who could run things and keep the respect needed. He would have to have the authority to overrule the owners. He also might have to divest himself of his team to avoid conflict of interest squawks.
By the way, do not forget Roger was also a very good racing driver himself so he knows that end of things too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Mark, as one of the "pro-IRL guys" who has been on the sharp end of your attacks (always in good nature, of course), I can appreciate your viewpoints even when I disagree with you on most occasions. Its always enjoyable to read your take...even when it "ruffles a few feathers" around here.
Shoot Mark is the only one here I can usually agree with.
One question I have though relates to the suggestion that NHL/HL/or H will move to the IRL next year. If I'm not mistaken, Carl Haas has distribution rights to Panos racing parts, and although not in the Champ Car ownership chain, he stands to lose considerably if he cannot sell parts to Champ Car. Now Panos races in plenty of other series, but I would think the DP01 represents a pretty good source of cashflow to Haas and moving to the IRL just wouldn't make sense.
However, just pulling this out of my a** if there were a deal to allow the DP01 or similar Panos chassis to run the IRL, then it might make more sense to Hass and other team owners to defect. And in my opinion if this happens, Champ Car will die. Just gas for thought...
John- Let's say, for just a second, that the CCWS is actually up against it and the owners choose not to answer the bell for 2008.Quote:
Originally Posted by john2112
To be very honest, the single most capible, most organized and most resourceful administrator in NAOWR today, IMO, is Vickie O'Conner.
I have no doubt that if CCWS was to go under that she could take the Mazda Atlantic series and pull it into stand-alone mode, probably as a major undercard support series to ALMS or GA, or maybe even the IRL. For that matter, maybe even all three!
I could actually see her parlay that series into one that would give Mazda everything they wanted in terms of American exposure.
That could be the opportunity for Mazda to retain their marketing exposure - especially if they can work relationships with other series to enhance their TV exposure. The networks may also be interested in the deal because they would know that, with the right TV package, Mazda could be a major advertising player through that outlet. Mazda, on the other hand, is able to avoid the political infighting we see today with the two major open wheel series (as they pretty much have to this point).
Not at all a prediction, just a thought about what might be ahead. I have a lot of faith in the MA series...to borrow a phrase..."it just seems like a series that is too good to let die" if CCWS goes away, and I think Vickie is respected enough throughout the motorsports industry that she would find another dance partner to help Mazda achieve its goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Hmmmm, can't wait for next week.
tbyars,Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
I made a post on another forum that kind of goes along with your thinking and it seems to be in harmony with Dr. Jack's theme of "what next" so I'll just paste it here.
.................................................. .................................
Putting aside all the "my side is better than yours" arguments, I've been thinking about something that's come up in few other threads in one manner or another. The first part seems to have more to do with the actual racing part and the second more with the economics involved.
As to the racing, it came up recently about how entertaining the action in the Star Mazda series is. Personally, I think it's true and I'd also say that the racing in CC Atlantic is equally so, along with the few GP2 races and Indy Pro Series races I've seen. My main point is the "feeder" series' seem to produce a better show than the "headline" series they support.
My thoughts are, and I might be off on this, but I'm thinking the technology creep that began in the late '70's has really had a profound effect on the health of AOWR. It's probably not so much the technology as much as the increases in speeds that resulted from it. And NASCAR made a pretty big move with the restrictor plates to at least head off the speed part of the technology creep.
During the same time that NASCAR was trying to slow their cars down, AOWR became intoxicated with speed. "It's a new track record," became the goal, and I think the actual "racing" part began to suffer because of it. However, flush with money from the manufactures and sponsors, the speeds and technology to reach them was pretty much left unchecked, which was fine until the money dried up.
I'll get back to the money side in a minute, but it's the increase in speed that seems a little more important. And I'm not going to deny the attraction to the 1,000 hp cars and the +230mph speeds, that was going on in the '90's. But with all that "awe" going on, there was a certain amount of "raw" that was lost which was present in the late '70's and early '80's.
I've just googled some of this stuff so if it's off, don't flay me over it. But as far as speed goes:
-In his '78 F1 winning season, Mario Andretti qualified his Lotus on the pole at the U.S. Grand Prix on the long course at Watkins Glen with a time of 1:38. In contrast the Indy Pro Series track record on the same course is: 1:37.
-The qualifying speed for the F1 race at Monza in '78 was 1:37. The qualifying speed for the GP2 cars on the slower course was 1:30.
-A.J. Foyt qualified 5th and finished 2nd in the '78 Indy 500 with a qualifying speed of 189mph. The pole for the Indy Pro Series race at Indy this year was 188mph.
My point really isn't so much the speed, but the cost of that speed. No matter how I look at it, AOWR is living beyond it's means. I could go on and on comparing it to it's glory days, or contrasting it against NASCAR, but why? That's the past and what could have been. But in the here and now…
I'm hearing you can run a competitive CC Atlantic team for $1M+ a year. That's a car that ran a 1:58 at Road America this year, compared to the CART '83 pole of 1:57.
So what would we be losing if CC Atlantic's, Indy Pro Series or maybe something along the lines of GP2 cars were the pinnacle of AOWR? Ego and speed mainly. I think most of the ego part would be from who we, as AOWR were, and partly compared to the F1 crowd. But the money's simply not there to be who we were, and it's certainly not there to pursue what the F1 teams spend.
Then we're left with the speed issue, which I'll get to shortly, but the point of this whole rambling post is to remove the "OW" part from the equation of "rethinking AOWR," and then it's really just American Racing. And at least for the mental exercise, if we stop comparing one OW racing series to another along with making comparisons to it's past or trying to compete with what's going on in Europe, and bring the debate around to competing for the American Racing market - I think OWR could do okay.
If it's just about the speed, a CC Atlantic car is quicker than a Nextel Cup car. And if it's about the racing, like I said earlier, these feeder series put on a pretty good show. So I think the real problem facing AOWR is more internal than external: it's competing either with itself, it's past, or F1. But I think the real competition is the "present" American Racing scene, and that's NASCAR.
So if by some miracle, the heads of the premier series of the IRL and CCWS were chopped off, and all that money was then put into their feeder series' - we'd have two AOWR series with 40+ car fields; putting on a better show than NASCAR; and also being faster than NASCAR.
Like I said in the title, "rethinking AOWR," I'm wondering if we're competing against what we shouldn't be competing against, and not competing for the market (American Racing) we should be. My point with all this being: I think we (OWR) have a better "racing" product than NASCAR does; and all AOWR's means need to be sacrificed to that end.
.................................................. ........................
To sum it up, I think one of the major liabilities with AOWR has very little to do with what they're doing and more with how they see themselves. There's a certain amount of prestige associated with its past, that the participants across the board have a hard time letting go of, and I believe that's contributed more to its current state than any other single factor.
I don't have a problem with the big dreams, but there's a difference between starting from the top and working your way up to it. So whether it's the IRL trying to be what they were, or CCWS trying to be bigger than they are, the common denominator in both cases is not laying the foundation to support the ideal they see themselves as.
In my opinion both NASCAR and F1 are where they are today because of the foundation they laid in the past, and I can see Mazda following a similar path. Starting with the original Formula Mazda, to the current Pro FM, and now into the Atlantics, each successive level was fully supported by the preceding one. And from the drivers side:
-Successful karters will participate in a full season of the BFGoodrich Skip Barber National Presented by Mazda.
-The Skip Barber National Champion will be racing in the Star Mazda Championship Presented by Goodyear.
-The Star Mazda Champion will be racing in the Cooper Tires Presents the Champ Car Atlantic Series Powered by Mazda.
So all in all, I'm seeing two contrasting views: one of Mazda building the foundation for AOWR from the ground up and the other, the old guard trying to prop up the ruins of the past.
-John
John, excellent post and great ideas. The research about speeds is particularly enlightening.
Great post John.Quote:
Originally Posted by john2112
To add to this, i would like to point out that the gp2-car is actually roughly as fast as the lola champcar was, while costs are between $1.0-$1.5 million for 11 races.
I recently posted something on another website regarding the speed differences between GP2 and the Lola-champcar.
--------------
Champcar's fastest lap in montreal was 109.8% (2004), 109.79% (2005) and 108.55% (2006) of the fastest race lap in F1 in the same year.
Gp2's fastest lap was 110.55% (Silverstone), 111.66% (Imola) and 109.71% (Hockenheim) compared to F1's fastest lap @ the same event in 2006.
I for one don't believe the hardcore fans will notice this 1 to 3% difference. And don't even start on the general audience.
The point is that champcar could have gone for a technical package that is to the eye as fast as the lola-package and in terms of actual speed 1 - 3 % of the pace. In terms of money gp2-championship winning ART-team ran on a budget of 2.5 million euro for 2 cars, which equals +- $1.5 million for 1 car for 11 races. A midpack team should be able to run for as low as $1 million.
--------------------
The weird thing is that whenever i propose such a formula everybody starts to talk about champcar not being a junior serie and that it would be bad for it's image. All i'm thinking is a) 17 cars, teamsupport, no sponsors and no driver stability due to lack of budget harms the serie way more and b) these cars are as fast as the lola's (well, at least you can't spot the 1-3% difference without a stopwatch). And the people who follow the gp2 championship know that it offers some of the best racing seen in a long time.
Imo it has exactly to do with what you are saying: Ego. Our car needs to be the fastest. And who cares that nobody has the money to run it.
John, excellent points. The whole issue people would have if Champ Car died and Atlantics were elevated, is that the cars are just not of the same difficulty to drive and set up. The bigger power and heavier cars in Champ Car or the IRL are tougher to driver and more of a challenge. That said, you are dead on the money saying Atlantics and Formula Mazda would put on a better show. GP2 puts on a better show than f1, but for whatever reason, OW racing is all about the challenge of the technology and the skill of the drivers, and not about the entertainment value. The problem is, racing ceased to be a serious R and D lab for the manufacturers a while back. It is now about promoting the brand, and providing entertainment, and the lesser formula would do better at these things.
It isn't going to change though people, so although we all know Atlantics, GP2, Infiniti Pro Series, and Formula Mazda would all be more entertaining than their bigger brothers, no one would shell out the big dollars for these guys in stand alone events...except maybe at Trois Rivieres where the Atlantics WERE The show for years....
Walker racing just formed a partnership to develop racers for CC.
I talked to Cameron at RA, he wants to get to CC.
All in this link-
http://www.topix.com/racing/star-mazda-series
just so I don't have to repeat myself. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
And yet, you just did.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Gary
I soon have to jump back into the other part of my life but I feel this has been great fun and helpful in understanding points of view that are new to me. I have leaned much from many of you in my week on posting on this board… Thanks to everyone for such a great discussion. There is much wisdom in this community and it needs to be heard above all the divisive rhetoric. Speaking of which...
Sanguin, You are the chaming poster child for Zeal. Thankfully, all 126 people (or are you down to 125 now?) left who still believe the Amigo's fantasies need you out front leading the charge to the Kool Aid fountain. Hey, did you also fall for pyramid schemes back in the 1980s? Anyhow, this would not have been nearly the fun it has been without you. Thanks. You have made more of my points than I could have made without your help. Say “hi” to Paper and the Cipper for me.
Back to what happens next?
So, it now seems clear to many of us that the Amigos have no real plan other than trying to force some sort of sale or merger by being in the way of progress. Actually, one of the Amigos once told me that this is the back-up plan. He cockily speculated back in 2003 that someone (TG, BE or the Frances) would buy them so it would all pan out for the best one way or another. I discounted that comment then but not now given how things have gone.
But I have a sense even that "strategy" is as fatally flawed as all the other gambits they have tried because the are failing to create any believable meaning in the ChampCar brand nor any tangible value that is not tied to a specific event such as Long Beach or Edmonton or Assen. So far, these events are racing snack food--not soul food. All lack the emotional meaning and defining power of something enduring like the Indy 500, Daytona 500, Monaco or Le Mans.
Now, there are probably people in ChampCar who do think strategically. In particular, I won't underestimate the impact that David Higdon is having on the current situation(s) but it is all clearly too little too late. He along with Tony Cotman and Vicky O’Connor stand as examples (there are many others past and present) of the precious human capital potentially squandered in this sorry mess.
So, what do I think will happen next?
ChampCar will try their best to change the subject and get hope floating again while they scramble to figure out what to do about the fires burning on every floor.
They will make an announcement (or three) in an attempt to stop the tailspin and to counter what the Indy Car Series likely has coming. The subjects could be:
1) A new event (or events) in Europe or Australia will come to the fore but that will probably need to wait until for confirmation until the FIA calendar is final so they will go for something else...
2) A new Euro or Aussie team or sponsor(s) will be rumored for months on end to deflect attention from the potential loss of CDW and RedBull. I can only imagine the pressure that is being put on Trust to jump in with both feet without looking.
3) A regional ChampCar support series in Europe will probably be the next real announcement. This will probably be Mazda Atlantic rather that going with F3 or F Whatever... It will also probably be someone other than the Amigos underwriting the idea based upon what they saw during the European races. Remember that it has been the Amigo’s style to get someone else to assume the risk so good luck to whoever takes this on! My guess that this is "The Big news” our dear friend Sanguin has been told by the Amigos. If so, it makes sense in that Atlantic works wonderfully as a formula. The Amigos are unlikely to escape funding cars to fill the CC field should they keep going and they don't want such funding to appear to be hand outs so they were probably thinking why not have a $2 million prize for a European Atlantic Championship winner and sell some Cosworth and PI stuff as part of the deal to offset the prize? My guess is that this sort of thinking is how they see most issues.
4) They will try to hire a major "brand name” sports marketing company to sell sponsorship. I hear rumors that IMG has been met with the Amigos during the past year, and I also suspect that NEXT Marketing is hard up against the reality of trying to sell "Mutton dressed as Lamb" (thanks for that great phrase flatchatracer.) I can’t help but think that they will either drop this sinkhole of a client (especially if CDW moves on as is rumored) or ultimately be replaced in the Amigos fruitless quest for credibility.
5) The Amigos will do whatever it takes to finally get Indy 500 winner (and potential IndyCar Series Champion) Dario Franchitti back to Champ Car as the team leader at NHL. My guess is that this is why PLN was in Detroit. In my opinion, it is really their last chance to show they have teeth and the will to win. I also doubt it will happen… but if it does, I suspect NHL will probably enter the Indy 500 which will once again open the door to the Champocolypse.
6) The Vegas GP will either get scrubbed or change hands to become the latest “brilliant strategic acquisition” by the Amigos.
I just read Gordon Kirby’s latest column on GordonKirby.com and Mike Hull of Target Chip Ganassi Racing says it best: “In racing, you’re either being validated or looking for validation. It’s one or the other, nothing in between.” So far, the Amigos have spent most of the past year stuck in “nothing in between”.
Speaking of “nothing”, that was what the shareholders of JDS/Uniphase were left with and what has resulted is the fabled JDS/Uniphase shareholder lawsuit that goes to trial in October. The plaintiffs allege fraud on the part of Kevin Kalkhoven and others. I found this (and much more) when I googled the subject this morning:
http://press.arrivenet.com/business/...hp/322351.html
“The lawsuit claims that the San Jose-based fiber-optics company issued false and misleading financial statements to the public. According to the complaint, JDS and 10 of its top officers stated throughout the Class Period that demand for the company's products was accelerating, and that the company's only problem was its ability to manufacture enough to meet demand. The complaint also maintains that the company misrepresented the success of several major acquisitions and downplayed its dependence on its two largest customers.
But the company falsely informed investors that demand was as strong as claimed, the complaint alleges. On July 26, 2001, JDS restated the company's third quarter 2001 financial results and took massive fourth-quarter charges to account for a total of $44 billion in write-offs associated with its acquisitions and excess inventory. Those revisions and write-offs increased JDS' losses for fiscal year 2001 to $56.1 billion. According to the complaint, JDS executives knew of a slowdown in demand because the company employed 80 engineers to monitor customers and inventory levels.
After the revised numbers were announced, JDS stock fell to as low as $7.90 per share after trading at a Class Period high of $146.32 - a 94% decline. The lawsuit also alleges that the artificially inflated stock price enabled certain company officers to sell $2.1 billion of their own JDS holdings before the company's true financial state became public.”
Hmmm, something about the foregoing sounds faintly familiar.
So what about the IndyCar Series?
What happens next?
I think they will have some announcements of their own:
1) They will reveal financial incentives to get new entrants --- especially a couple of ChampCar teams who have probably had enough of the Amigos. Who knows, one or more may jump ship? Think about it: If you were a Champ Car team owner trying to sell sponsorship, what would you do? Despite this, my guess is the IRL may end up with about the same number of cars due to the loss of one or more of TG’s cars and possible reduction of effort by other teams that have been supported by him. You can take this as a bad sign for the IRL, or a good sign, depending on your political bent.
2) IndyCar may announce their 17th race in Southern California (San Diego or LA are rumored) and it will actually happen if announced. If so, there will be significant corporate sponsorship and media buzz and it will be a tipping point in the minds of most if it does indeed come to fruition. It will also be a street race bringing the total of 2008 road races to six.
3) The Indy Car Series will give more clues about the next generation cars and engines as well as the 100th Anniversary era, which should create interest and discussion. Like many, I remain skeptical that they will create something cool but I will wait until they announce what they plan to do until I make my mind up. Hell, what else can we all really do?
4) Honda will or won’t announce something! My guess is that they will stick with the Indy Car Series through 2009 and perhaps longer. But, anything can happen (as history has proven). Honda’s potential for departure remains as the Amigo’s Great White Hope for a more favorable end to their misguided hobby adventure. On the other hand, should Honda eject they I doubt they will leave the series in the lurch and there is a chance some other manufacturer may be interested. Perhaps the series engine supply will be run under another business model. How about junkyard motors? Time will tell how this plays out but I doubt TG’s boys are sitting on their hands.
5) Sam Hornish and RP will announce the NASCAR switch and Ryan Brisco will replace him as has been reported elsewhere. There will be some negative backlash but life will go on. My sense is that Hornish will have a way back to RP’s IndyCar if he wants it and I bet he will eventually.
6) The Indy Car Series and Just Marketing will announce a new series sponsor before the season begins. Hopefully it won’t be a struggling company like Northern Lights or Pep Boys. If this happens, and the sponsor is a mainstream brand with a real activation budget the game is over.
7) Gene Simmons will be renewed and asked to anchor the Indy 500 Broadcast along with PeeWee Herman. Ratings will soar to 1996 levels.
Overall, my sense is that the Indy Car Series will continue to struggle for true credibility with drivers and the media if they remain hell bent on creating such obviously contrived racing in an effort to reach the mythical casual fan. To me, this is a key issue. Doesn't anyone pause and ask themselves if this tactic has worked? From the looks of it... no. Using ChampCar's hapless current state as a competitive benchmark is also foolish at best.
I think the whole Split has been about underestimating how much damage would be done by alienating the generations of hard core auto racing fans who love and respect the Indy 500 and what it really stands for. I can’t imagine the NFL, MLB or the NBA taking the same risk. The closest things to this stupidity have been the MLB and NHL Strikes and you can plainly see how those actions helped each of those sports!
In the end, there has to be a balance between found between the IRL’s chronic NASCAR envy and ChampCar’s incurable F1 wannabeitis.
I hope the powers that be find it because I don’t see any other way forward.
Real Indy Car racing has never been about lusting after the cultures of NASCAR or Formula 1.
I believe the sport has always been rooted in its own unique culture that embraces individuality, talent, innovation, courage and diversity. These are all the things that still make America special and something you won’t find while chasing a sanction fee to the four corners of the earth or by being Hamburger Helper to NASCAR promoters trying to make the numbers in the face of NEXTEL's Cup's declining fan interest, overexposure and sponsor clutter.
I also believe that nothing less than The Real Thing is what we all really want and as the folks a Porsches say, we should “accept no substitutes”.
For the record, I am one of the people who didn’t like the Handford device because of what it stood for nor do I fawn over “innovations” like the “power to pass” button. To me, the Danica “Steeringgate” flap is more of the same and all are damaging to the integrity of the sport and to the hard earned progress and success Danica has enjoyed this year. You know, people simply aren’t that dumb and universal access to information makes it hard to fool anyone these days.
One thing the IndyCar Series folks are right about though is that if Danica (legitimately) wins an Indy Car race the world will change forever… so I hope it happens.
The world will also change if the leaders of the sport size the opportunity to make things right again, which in my mind means making us whole again as a culture.
I also want "what happens next" to place less weight on people like WebCowlings (a demonic pro IRL web forum poster from 1995) or Sanquin (no comment) trying their best help us hate each other. Its time for people to come forward who remind us all of what we have in common. To me, that is a shared past and a bright future.
Which brings me back to where we began:
What happens next?
When you think about the answers to that question, don’t forget that the customer has a voice that is more powerful than ever before.
So, the time has come for me say goodbye.
Thanks for letting me drill down into this juicy subject rather than another rotten molar.
Since this is the end of my time posting on these boards I thought it would be appropriate to quote David St. Hubbins on the subject of "The End", as I slip back into cyberspace:
“Asked by a reporter if this is the end of Spinal Tap] “Well, I don't really think that the end can be assessed as of itself as being the end because what does the end feel like? It's like saying when you try to extrapolate the end of the universe, you say, if the universe is indeed infinite, then how — what does that mean? How far is all the way, and then if it stops, what's stopping it, and what's behind what's stopping it? So, what's the end, you know, is my question to you.”
In that spirit, please keep this conversation going. – Dr. Jack
Come on Sanguin. In unison with me..."all smoke and mirrors".Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJackMiller
Thanks, DrJack, for finally giving us your thoughts on what happens next.
Remember though, and I know you know it, since you posted it, that the JDS case doesn't go to trial until October. Since it hasn't happened yet, no one has been convicted yet. The fact remains that the defendants may be guilty, but it's wise not to sentence them yet.
But you've pretty well convinced me of your pro-irl bias. Not that there's anything wrong with that....
About Danica getting her win....I really don't get how the world will change, except that a woman will get a win in a major open wheel series (a feat for which she, or anyone, should be congratulated for), but Ashley Force has won races, as have several other women in drag racing. Do they get the short end of the stick in favor of Danicamania?
And one comment to pvtjoker: please, please, please....there is no need to quote the entire post (especially when it's that long) to make a one line comment.
Shirley Muldowney
I also have to thank you Doc for using your fingers more than me to convey a lot of what I have felt or believed for a long time...I can't speak to your IRL portion of what's next cause I don't really know those guys, but I will say about your previous post: I think we must have met in late '03 because I had the same discussion with an Amigo with bad teeth :) ; Anyway, I agree with most of your thoughts and would add that PN will retire as a team owner; GF will be replaced as an Amigo; and PG will wait until the last second to run one car, if any at all. Best to you and feel free to PM me if you'd like to share some funny '03 stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins
There will be no convictions. Its a CIVIL class action lawsuit against the Company and 10 others are named. It's strictly about a money settlement. It may be settled before anything happens. It won't affect CC much to the dismay of the IRL fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins
In response-
Rumors about CDW?I don't think so,made up by IRL fanatics trying to denigrate the series. Red bull may may be committed to nascar, although I think they are missing their target audience.
I don't think any CC teams will switch to IRL but 1 or more IRL teams may switch to CC.
CC is not for sale.If it were ,why wouldn't TG buy it.
The IRL will announce another street race(maybe) and TF will go into a tailspin. No one else will care. (see Sonoma)
Actually Jack ,if you would refrain from personal attacks and not taint your predictions with obvious bias, they 're not bad, but a little wishful on the IRL side. I don't think there will be a series sponsor without a merge. And the new car is just postering as it is just paper right now. Alot depends on manufacturer involvement and that's sketchy at best. I also think ABC/ESPN will flex some muscle on any contract extensions with the IRL and they will make them pay or get the 500 at a discount.As for IRL, it will be just more of the same.
BUT this is dead on-
It's the reason why Milwaukee isn't succeeding.The trickle down effecct. A whole generation has not known or been exposed to the greatness of what INDY once was, because the alienated fans of the split have not taught them or taken them to the races or watched it with them on tv.It's played right into nsacar's advantage. There is only one person to blame and that is TG, he owns it and he broke it.Quote:
Overall, my sense is that the Indy Car Series will continue to struggle for true credibility with drivers and the media if they remain hell bent on creating such obviously contrived racing in an effort to reach the mythical casual fan. To me, this is a key issue. Doesn't anyone pause and ask themselves if this tactic has worked? From the looks of it... no. Using ChampCar's current state as a competitive benchmark is also foolish at best.
I think the whole Split has been about underestimating how much damage would be done by alienating the generations of hard core auto racing fans who love and respect the Indy 500 and what it really stands for. I can’t imagine the NFL, MLB or the NBA taking the same risk. The closest things to this stupidity have been the MLB and NHL Strikes and you can plainly see how those actions helped each of those sports!
So CC forges on with its own identity and events not depending on just one to make them viable while IRL still tries to recreate the past. It's too late.
Why do I get the feeling CC is doing the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
I don't know. I think Champ Car is trying to create something new, and that's exactly what you among others (including sometimes me) tend to criticize.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvtjoker
Just where? The IRL going around in circles pedal to the metal I think not. To F1 same I think not. Road racing series, maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
PCM came from Grand-Am, some teams like Walker and Coyne have been around a long time and run wherever they can. They both have extensive oval experience. Stoddart will always find somewhere to land. The engineers and crew can easily move on to many other series. There will be some losers (in addition to the fans), but it won't be an apocalypse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old3Fan
Sanguin,
Do you think there will be some encouraging announcements from CCWS before the next race in Australia?
Whats new about it? Its like an F1 imitation series at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetch
Actually it is almost true. CCWS at the moment resembles F1 a little:Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetch http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif
I don't know. I think Champ Car is trying to create something new, and that's exactly what you among others (including sometimes me) tend to criticize.
Whats new about it? Its like an F1 imitation series at the moment.
- power - 730 bhp - the same as F1
- tires - hard and soft option - the same in F1
- standing starts
- road and street circuits with a trend to spread in Europe, Asia.
Of course there are differences:
- cars are heavier (with fuel 650kg versus 820kg so-so during the race)
- turbo engines on methanol and PTP buttons
- 1hour45minutes basis of racing distance
- there is only one 'model' racing car for everybody
And something more - i can see that TG and IRL are in a very good position now. Here is my opinion - it is a matter of time, maybe 2 or 3 years when the IRL may become in the matter of the schedule like old pre-split Indycar (if TG wants it of course). All to be done is to add another 2 road and 2 street races to the current schedule and remove 2 ovals and ... we have it. And if IRL uses a brand new car (maybe even rules) at that moment (after 2 or 3 years) things will be quite different from now. IRL will be more attractive to sponsors, spectators ... and drivers (because it will be less considered as a series where cars go around in circles). It will became like so desired MERGER series we want , BUT WITHOUT A MERGER!
Agreed - one of the better posts as of late. Love the bit about the TG haters. God knows that there are other CC forums that live by the F* TG and BE motto.
Like the thread starter, i too love the racing in CC.
Cy
TG and the IRL are not in a good position right now. Their plan to turn the IRL into CART-lite is failing. It will never be successful. Losing ovals and adding road and street races will be their downfall. From the beginning TG has fragmented the fan base with the creation of the IRL, and he keeps on doing with every attempt to try to make the IRL the old CART. He has taken teams ,drivers and tracks and nothing has worked.The road courses Sonoma and WG are not successful. Since Honda has secured St Pete and MId-Ohio, ALMS will continue to run at these venues with or without IRL. Same goes for Detroit, clearly, the freebie ticket holders showed up for the race on Sunday and it wasn't full. That event can always remain an ALMS venue with RP in that series regardless if IRL is there or not.In TG's attempt to copy CART he taken some the worst parts of it and the fans aren't following. The CARS are slow and old. The new car is not an option right now because the manufacturer situation remains unclear.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan-veteran
TG is too far behind and doesn't have enough options to even come close to being successful as CART was.The fans will never follow. Besides ,all things you mentioned are already in CC along with a paying fan base.
keep wishin' and hopin'.
Dr. Jack, I don't know whose horse you rode in on, and I have no idea why you dropped this little hand grenade in everyone's laps, but I thank you for it. One hundred and Ninety Three posts and we are still going at it.
First off, I wont breakdown your thoughts ( I know you are reading it you sneaky little devil, curiousity would have you look back to see what people thought of your post) but I will say you are dead on the money when you say that the IRL has NASCAR envy and CCWS has f1 Envy. It has been my contention all along that they should have CART envy, and now that the IRL is slowly coming to the realization a few ovals work, and a lot of other events can work, they are starting to turn their corner. Despite all the spin and propaganda by our friend Sanguin, that is happening. I don't have to like it, but I wont ignore it either.
CCWS is now on some new search for sanctioning fees, while events over here are slowly sliding if they are not making money. That in itself would be fine if the series was a) more well off and b) not losing a lot of good will and PR happiness when they do go. Vegas I suspect is on shakier legs than people will admit ( when the same guy deep sixes Phoenix in the way he did, you have to be nervous about another start up in Vegas) and if it goes, it is proof positive that CCWS doesn't care about its American partners. If THAT perception gets out there, it is GAME OVER people.
This series is American. Based in Indianapolis, its roots are there, and despite all the spin and bluster, its roots and history that is wants to deny at times are still there. If it becomes a world wide globe trotter, it better have someone paying the bills. We know KK isn't interested in paying them. Their TV contracts are a joke, and they have no national PR prescence. The IRL, for all its warts, promotes like crazy. Coming home Saturday morning, I heard Gene Simmons and later Marty Roth being interviewed about the IRL on FAN590, in Toronto. Now I have little time for either when it comes to racing, but the point is, the FAN hasn't had anyone from Champ Car on since the day the SteelBack GP left town. Not likely to either. The IRL promotes like mad, and uses whatever it can, and they stuck this right into the heart of Champ Car loyal Toronto on the main sports station. It is the little things like that that Champ Car is missing.
In their need to try to make money on EVERY event, they are not putting any money to the greater series promotion. What is more, the teams I don't think are getting much out of the overseas races, whereas we all have read about KK and the Amigo's getting their cake. Dale Coyne gets NOTHING out of racing in Europe, yet he goes, because that is what footsoldiers do.
No, What happens next is up to fate, but Dr. Jack is right to cast a jaundiced eye on the JDS/Uniphase thing and wonder. KK is up to his arms in that one, and while not convicted, the MO looks similar. Lots of Sizzle, little steak, and the big investors walked and cashed out while the little guy took a beat down. Right now we have CCWS ownership taking profit off events where they can, buying up proven assets such as Cosworth and a few events that will fill their pockets, but there is no steak to sell. There is no there there. You have no marketing plan, lousy TV rights ( in a sport that LIVES or DIES by TV money and exposure for the team sponsors ) and a product that isn't unique anymore. CART was unique. Different chassis, different tracks, AMERICAN in focus and with a few ovals to provide some scary speeds, followed up with excellent events on road and street courses. The fact the IRL ditched their old premise and is now emulating CART is great fun for me, since I called this one from the start that this is where TG was going, it just took him about a decade to figure it out ( I never said Tony was bright, I just know he is rich and venal).
The winner of this "war" will be the one that survives, and right now, for the first time in 12 years I think I know it wont be CCWS. I didn't say I want this outcome, but my once optimisitic outlook (look at old posts, or ask other members, and they will tell you I have stood by this series loyally for as long as I have posted here, and joined CCF for about 10 minutes before I realized they were a little nuts over there)is now gone.
In the future, I see maybe one, maybe two CCWS teams either fold or leave to go elsewhere. Not going to speculate who, but when the fight is this hard to survive, and then you have to learn to operate and BUY a new car while holding out hope you can find sponsors, it has to be taking a toll.
If we lose a team, hopefully we gain a couple. Europe might pay off, but unless it pays big in sponsors or new richer teams, it will not do much but line KK and the Amigo's depleted pockets. I predict one of the Amigo's will get out, and GF is the likely candidate. A new Sugar Daddy might come along, we shall see.
I believe we will lose one more event on the schedule, for it is just my opinion, but Vegas is vulernable. I have read too much, and notice who the promotor is to trust this guy as far as I can throw him. He will leave CC at the altar and make them look stupid again, and yet it will somehow be seen as a triumph to Sanguin, who is now officially trying to become the best unpaid employee of the organization.
I believe Steve Johnson will be heaved overboard. Good riddance....
I believe Cotman, and others will do excellent work trying to keep the pumps working as the ship is listing. I believe that Champ Car soldiers on for one more season, with mixed results.
Unless there is new ownership money and compentant leadership, this ship will go down. It isn't what I wish, but I feel that is the course we are seeing. You are seeing quick snap decisions to minimize losses being made when this series may require a lot more capital into marketing and PR. God knows they cant even keep the website up to date and useful at times, and if you cant get that right, what other PR mistakes are you making?
No, I don't see a bright future...but there is one if steps are taken.
AS for the IRL, well, I am on this forum, but lets just say they are not going away, but they are not getting much bigger...but they keep inching along, making forward progress. Instead of going for the long bomb, it seems TG has a bit of a ground game going now.....
So, what happens next - my answer:
possibility one - after 2 or 3 years TG will by the CCWS series assets and we will have one big AOW series - IRL or IndyCar, with about 20 races and 26 cars on the grid. Is it good or bad - i think not bad, or at least better than now. Very likely IRL will introduce a new rules and new car(s).
possibility two - CCWS survives, finds it's own identity and becomes a well spread world series based in USA. For those participants who want to race/take part with a very fast OW cars , don't have a chance (or maybe even a desire) to participate in F1 and don't want to race on ovals.
He probably missed your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer
Fan Veteran, despite all the crap you will hear here, option 1 is a greater likelyhood. When CCWS's ownership group realizes it will be a long slog to make serious money on going international, they will be looking for a way out. Paul Gentilozzi would sell out his mom for the right price, so I cant see him not listening to an offer from TG, and that goes for KK at some point as well. GF and Petit are the only two of the 4 names connected to the ownership that seem to have principles about NOT selling to Tony, but I know they like money too.
If CCWS makes it as F1 lite, by going to markets F1 is ignoring, remember A1GP is trying that...and it is losing money hand over fist. Now the product is different, but I find A1 races a hoot to watch, and unlike Champ Car, I can find them easily on Speed every winter. Even with that, they are getting clobbered. Different business model, but I have to believe that the only way you get rich by racing all over the orld is to start off really rich. Only f1 can pull it off, and they don't live in the real world anyhow.....
In 2003, although Pook spent millions....I think he did better than SJ/KK this year. He tried to establish this series to its standards, not the desperation to as it is now. He kept 18-19 scheduled event (although California was cancelled due to the socal brushfire). The lineup of drivers were kept to 19 cars. CART name was still known next to F1 and NASCAR. IRL then was unprecedented series. He spent money to put the series in CSI Miami and promote it to an extent but the money stopped flowing. That's the sad part because the new owners made the series so cheap and amateur. They cancelled races and replaced the good tracks. On top of that, Pook proved that his lies weren't as bad as the current management, I tell you that.
I believe that CCWS may become a much cheaper and much better semi-alternative to F1. Why a semi-alternative you may ask - it is obvious - because they are a very fast OW cars, next faster to F1, and have an option even be the fastest (excluding some exotics like dragsters). Also - there are not ovals. The lack of ovals is good (safety, cost issues in case of crashes, more world-wide-friendly for spectators, more driver-interest-friendly to participate) and bad (lack of exotics). But there is exotics in street circuits and it should be developed and explored.
But as the "spec cars" have their great advantages, they also have a disadvantage - no manufacturers could "enter" the series (you know that). If the rules are so restrictive to allow different manufacturers, but to provide almost identical cars then what will be the interest of participating (at least a big issues), and more important - the costs will go up.
So the series will be in this case like-amateur, but not so amateurish - because no amateur (or tunning maniac) could design and manufacture so fast, safe, reliable car (at that cost).
You would be surprised to know that CC now operates in the black.
TG doesn't have a chance.
CC does NOT operate in the black...not close by $18 million!!! That is the most disingenuous post I've ever read.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin