Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

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5th July 2007, 00:00
Valve Bounce

If plans were found, what good are these to another team? unless they are plans of next year's car?
5th July 2007, 00:28
f1rocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

If plans were found, what good are these to another team? unless they are plans of next year's car?

Does that really matter. The team is still guilty if this helped.....

Also isnt it odd that A Macca chief designer get's Ferrari data from Stepney and he just keeps it as a souvenir!??

Wake up guys....This is gonna tarnish Mclaren for good...And I am not a Ferrari fan (only MS fan). I want Hamilton to win the WDC this year...
5th July 2007, 01:08
f1rocks

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formu...lomclaren.shtml

The 500 page document received by the Mclaren employee contained the following information:

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007;
- details of the internal structures and workflows in Maranello;
- information on the main engineers;
- data on car setups;
- race strategies;
- preparation of the cars;
- development plans for the future;
- quality control standards;
- testing results.

I just cannot believe this. There are definitely more people involved. Why would Nigel just send this info to an old friend. I hope the police get to the bottom of all this soon.
5th July 2007, 01:13
f1rocks

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formu...lomclaren.shtml

The 500 page document received by the Mclaren employee contained the following information:

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007;
- details of the internal structures and workflows in Maranello;
- information on the main engineers;
- data on car setups;
- race strategies;
- preparation of the cars;
- development plans for the future;
- quality control standards;
- testing results.

In other words, they got everything...If they really have all of that, it is not believable that only one McLaren person is involved. A car designer would not really benefit from race strategy, test results, etc. Of couse, they were careful to insulate other higher-ups. However, if money changed hands, it may be possible to prove wider participation at McLaren.

I just cannot believe this. I hope the police get to the bottom of all this soon.
5th July 2007, 05:50
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1rocks

Does that really matter. The team is still guilty if this helped.....

Also isnt it odd that A Macca chief designer get's Ferrari data from Stepney and he just keeps it as a souvenir!??

Wake up guys....This is gonna tarnish Mclaren for good...And I am not a Ferrari fan (only MS fan). I want Hamilton to win the WDC this year...

Well, I feel sorry for you that you cannot discuss this topic on a rational ubiased manner. How do you know that the McLaren person used the plans to advantage the McLaren cars? For your information, the FIA are looking into it right now.

And if you want to push the point that you are a fan of SchM and not Ferrari, we can open one helluva can of worms in that direction, so it's better for you to unlax a little. We don't want another SchM bash thread here - we don't need it anymore; he has retired, so let it go.
5th July 2007, 05:51
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1rocks

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formu...lomclaren.shtml

The 500 page document received by the Mclaren employee contained the following information:

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007;
- details of the internal structures and workflows in Maranello;
- information on the main engineers;
- data on car setups;
- race strategies;
- preparation of the cars;
- development plans for the future;
- quality control standards;
- testing results.

In other words, they got everything...If they really have all of that, it is not believable that only one McLaren person is involved. A car designer would not really benefit from race strategy, test results, etc. Of couse, they were careful to insulate other higher-ups. However, if money changed hands, it may be possible to prove wider participation at McLaren.

I just cannot believe this. I hope the police get to the bottom of all this soon.

It would benefit the guy greatly if the alleged persons involved are both planning to move to another team.

By the way, your link doesn't work.
5th July 2007, 06:17
f1rocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

By the way, your link doesn't work.

Here you go again. Its in Italian but I am sure by tommorrow we will see a lot more in English..

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formul...omclaren.shtml

I
5th July 2007, 06:25
f1rocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Well, I feel sorry for you that you cannot discuss this topic on a rational ubiased manner. How do you know that the McLaren person used the plans to advantage the McLaren cars?

.

And I feel sorry for you as well because you have no beef in your arguments. All you can do is to get personal. We have a forum and that is why we discuss things.

And do you have an answer to why Mike needed those documents from Nigel. Why have Mclaren suspended their Chief Designer ??? Try debating issues instead of resorting to personal attacks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

For your information, the FIA are looking into it right now.

.

The same way they looked at Mclaren team orders at Monaco. Hopefully this time we have the civil courts as well to decide who was guilty...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

And if you want to push the point that you are a fan of SchM and not Ferrari, we can open one helluva can of worms in that direction, so it's better for you to unlax a little. We don't want another SchM bash thread here - we don't need it anymore; he has retired, so let it go.

I am posting my facts stating that I am no longer biased towards Ferrari as MS has retired. But as always you like to twist things and get personal .. I am a Lewis fan and want him to be WDC this year. But I still want Mclaren to lose their WCC points if proven guilty....
5th July 2007, 06:48
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1rocks

And I feel sorry for you as well because you have no beef in your arguments. All you can do is to get personal. We have a forum and that is why we discuss things.

And do you have an answer to why Mike needed those documents from Nigel. Why have Mclaren suspended their Chief Designer ??? Try debating issues instead of resorting to personal attacks...

The same way they looked at Mclaren team orders at Monaco. Hopefully this time we have the civil courts as well to decide who was guilty...

I am posting my facts stating that I am no longer biased towards Ferrari as MS has retired. But as always you like to twist things and get personal .. I am a Lewis fan and want him to be WDC this year. But I still want Mclaren to lose their WCC points if proven guilty....

I am very sorry if my post turned out to be attacking you - that is far from my intention; my sincerest apologies :(

I can only reiterate that both guys might be wanting to go to a different team next year and that would benefit them greatly for next year.

Glad to see you are now a Lewis Hamilton fan - I think he's a great addition to F1.
5th July 2007, 08:32
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1rocks

Also isnt it odd that A Macca chief designer get's Ferrari data from Stepney and he just keeps it as a souvenir!??

Yes, very odd. The whole situation is very odd. For all anyone knows Coughlan may have been as surprised as anyone that this information landed on his doorstep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1rocks

Wake up guys....This is gonna tarnish Mclaren for good...

There is nothing to suggest that McLaren, as a team, either initiated contacted with Nigel Stepney, or approached him in any way. For whatever reasons, not yet fully explained, Stepney appears to have sent documents to Coughlan who is someone he has worked with in the past someone he presumably trusts.

This whole issue appears to have begun with Stepney's wish to leave Ferrari following the break-up of the "dream team". That's the starting point for all of this.
5th July 2007, 08:47
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by racing59

From an unbiassed point of view (my favourite team is my own!)

Talk of McLaren's upturn in form since April vs Ferrari's fall, and you all forget the early races and the discussion of the "moving floors" which Ferrari has to fix, and McLaren did not suffer with.

Stepney is being stitched up for being p'd off at not being allowed to do a Brawn or Byrne (sabbatical), and what credit for the man who was part of the team that put the Scuderia back on top after many years as a midfield team.

From my own experience of working in the sport of F1, you learn very quickly that there are always plenty of people ready to stab you in the back, and blame you for everything and anything, if it can get "them" out of trouble (until they eventually get found out!).

And what information, of use, could pass from Ferrari to McLaren? As has been said, there is little or no common design areas on any of the cars, except (ahem) the RB and the STR, or the SA07 and the RA07.... And setup information is pointless as different chassis will react totally different to different setups.

In my own racing, there are people who run stiffer spring/lower tyre pressure setups and get a good feel, to those who run soft springs/higher tyre pressures. More or less crossweight/wedge, etc.. The feel for the car is in the driver's confidence.

This whole media driven "trial" is a bit like a medieval witch-hunt with "Trial by ordeal" where they tie rocks to you, throw you in the river. If you drown, then you are innocent, and absolved of any wrongdoing. If you float, you must be a witch and are burned at the stake!

The losers, will be F1 in general as the fans get p'd off with the politics again.

While F1 in the UK is riding high on Lewis-mania, this sort of "scandal" could turn them back off the sport again and back to "Big Brother on Grass" (premier league football).

good points all. if you were going to build a ferrari from scratch, then the plans would have some benefit but otherwise, very little.

I would still urge everyone to not jump to conclusions in this matter. there is something going on but it's as clear as concrete what that "something" is at this time. best wait and see.
5th July 2007, 10:38
MrPonx

I lost interest in this story...

Quote:

Bernie insists that drivers won`t lose points over Stepneygate

Bernie Ecclestone has dismissed claims that Lewis Hamilton could be deducted points as a result of the Stepneygate crisis which threatens to derail the 2007 season.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,189...470935,00.html
5th July 2007, 10:40
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

good points all. if you were going to build a ferrari from scratch, then the plans would have some benefit but otherwise, very little.

I would still urge everyone to not jump to conclusions in this matter. there is something going on but it's as clear as concrete what that "something" is at this time. best wait and see.

Very good point! :up:
5th July 2007, 11:16
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrPonx

I lost interest in this story...

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,189...470935,00.html

slightly misleading.

Bernie doesn't have the power to decide who loses points but just gives his opinion that it would be unfair if they did. he also says that there would have to be evidence that McLaren were involved to take any action.

you cant just penalise a team if an employee does something without their knowledge in an unofficial capacity. as Bernie says, Ron and McLaren have been totally transparent in this matter and completely above board. there has been no suggestion of closing ranks and no suggestion that McLaren have done anything wrong. quite the contarary.

but f**k it. Its McLaren so lets just shoot them anyway. :rolleyes:
5th July 2007, 11:35
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1rocks

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formu...lomclaren.shtml

The 500 page document received by the Mclaren employee contained the following information:

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007;
- details of the internal structures and workflows in Maranello;
- information on the main engineers;
- data on car setups;
- race strategies;
- preparation of the cars;
- development plans for the future;
- quality control standards;
- testing results.

In other words, they got everything...If they really have all of that, it is not believable that only one McLaren person is involved. A car designer would not really benefit from race strategy, test results, etc. Of couse, they were careful to insulate other higher-ups. However, if money changed hands, it may be possible to prove wider participation at McLaren.

I just cannot believe this. I hope the police get to the bottom of all this soon.

If that is true FIA hasn't so much to deliberate - McLaren must loos their points - at least after that they got this info about Ferrari - and BIG boot - it must also be a question to pay about millions to Ferrari. It really doesn't help to say "we haven't used the information in our cars".. :down:

Its very disappointing .. but sometimes it looks like that - when the big money moves..
5th July 2007, 11:51
Hondo

Possibly these documents were the cause of the "moving floor" protest earlier in the season.
5th July 2007, 12:05
SGWilko

How convenient that the whole document is now in the oublic gaze. If it was that sensitive, Ferrari would not allow the press to print it, now would they. Or, am I jumping to conclusions here, it is merely a reference to what was in that dossier.

Is their some gain to the team by allowing this in the public domain. The more this story runs, the more this smacks of a fit up.

I think this is a case for Columbo/Miss Marple/Judge John Deed/Ironside, or, we could even put 007, our best man on the case....... :D
5th July 2007, 12:05
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas123f1

If that is true FIA hasn't so much to deliberate - McLaren must loos their points - at least after that they got this info about Ferrari - and BIG boot - it must also be a question to pay about millions to Ferrari. It really doesn't help to say "we haven't used the information in our cars".. :down:

Its very disappointing .. but sometimes it looks like that - when the big money moves..

let me guess.... Ferrari fan?

must be psychic :p :

can you please enlighten us with your breathtaking perception of this case just what the company has done wrong? for Christs sake, we dont even know if anyones done anything wrong and what it is yet so implicating McLaren in this is a bit far fetched unless you have some knowledge that were not privvy to.
5th July 2007, 12:09
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1rocks

If they really have all of that, it is not believable that only one McLaren person is involved. A car designer would not really benefit from race strategy, test results, etc. Of couse, they were careful to insulate other higher-ups. However, if money changed hands, it may be possible to prove wider participation at McLaren.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas123f1

If that is true FIA hasn't so much to deliberate - McLaren must loos their points....

If...if...if...that is the contents of the document...you can speculate and make as many assumptions as you like, but without a basis in fact any assumption is on thin ground.

Deciding on a penalty for one party in all of this is premature at best.
5th July 2007, 12:31
leopard

They can actually go with their own data which was proven that they can make a fastest ever F1 car before. They need only to make more perfection on cut backs of any achievement with their current resource.

This might tarnish credibility of McLaren, but as usual such any accusation on dirty strategy as team orders or anything will wind up sooner or later, that's the interesting part of F1
5th July 2007, 12:39
pino

Just in....

According to ital channel Studio Sport (Italia1) there is another McLaren employer involved in this story. Hopefully we will know more in the next hours, not that I am excited about it anyway :s
5th July 2007, 12:53
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by pino

According to ital channel Studio Sport (Italia1) there is another McLaren employer involved in this story. Hopefully we will know more in the next hours, not that I am excited about it anyway :s

It was Elvis - he was seen leaving the scene of the alledged crime in Blue Suede Shoes, and whistling Jail House Rock.
5th July 2007, 12:59
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by pino

According to ital channel Studio Sport (Italia1) there is another McLaren employer involved in this story. Hopefully we will know more in the next hours, not that I am excited about it anyway :s

Thanks pino. Hopefully this will shut up a bit the McLaren fans who are painting Ferrari as the bad ones already.

[quote="f1rocks"]http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formu...lomclaren.shtml

The 500 page document received by the Mclaren employee contained the following information:

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007]

Not a bad work there Mr. Stepney!
Let's hope that justice will be done. Maybe we will get another new team in F1 next season! :D ;)
5th July 2007, 13:46
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Ferrari have revealed that they were tipped off about McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan possibly having Ferrari documents by someone outside of Formula One.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60502

Edit: I wonder if it was Ross Brawn :D :laugh:
5th July 2007, 13:47
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Thanks pino. Hopefully this will shut up a bit the McLaren fans who are painting Ferrari as the bad ones already.

when someone posts something like this, I understand its customary to say

Link Please

Quote:

Not a bad work there Mr. Stepney!
Let's hope that justice will be done. Maybe we will get another new team in F1 next season! :D ;)

I think we all want justice to be done correctly in this matter. lets wait and see what the FIA say.

if McLaren are adjudged to have acted improperly, I will accept whatever punishment they deserve.

if McLaren have been adjudged not to have behaved correctly, you will claim the FIA is in leage with Ron Denis ;)
5th July 2007, 14:09
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60502

Edit: I wonder if it was Ross Brawn :D :laugh:

No!! it was OJ. He's still trying to convince everyone that he is innocent.
5th July 2007, 14:14
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

if McLaren have been adjudged not to have behaved correctly, you will claim the FIA is in leage with Ron Denis ;)

ummm, well, you know what I mean ;) if they havent been naughty boys :D
5th July 2007, 14:17
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

let me guess.... Ferrari fan?

must be psychic :p :

can you please enlighten us with your breathtaking perception of this case just what the company has done wrong? for Christs sake, we dont even know if anyones done anything wrong and what it is yet so implicating McLaren in this is a bit far fetched unless you have some knowledge that were not privvy to.

let me guess.... you are not a Ferrari fan? :D

What is a company in your mind? In my mind a company it's the leading personal in different functions in a company and things like that we are discussion are even more serious if a person who has a leading position in a company is involved.
But as i said IF it's true.. it's serious .. no question about that .. but let's hope it's not as newspapers are mentioning.
5th July 2007, 14:18
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

I think we all want justice to be done correctly in this matter. lets wait and see what the FIA say.

if McLaren are adjudged to have acted improperly, I will accept whatever punishment they deserve.

if McLaren have been adjudged not to have behaved correctly, you will claim the FIA is in leage with Ron Denis ;)

To the hell with the FIA, they will try to protect themselves first, bunch of pussies. Let's see what will be decided in the court, in England and in Italy!
5th July 2007, 14:19
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas123f1

let me guess.... you are not a Ferrari fan? :D

No, he's a McLaren fan, quite obviously! :D
5th July 2007, 14:27
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

To the hell with the FIA, they will try to protect themselves first, bunch of pussies. Let's see what will be decided in the court, in England and in Italy!

Another view of things: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=31995

First of all, my opinion is that Bernie cannot dictate what the outcome, if any, will be. He can give his opinion, but that's about it.

But ioan raises a very interesting point here: the courts in both Italy and the UK could have a determination of any punishment; however, the courts cannot penalise teams regarding points, wins etc. They can only fine persons/teams and/or chuck persons in jail.

It will be the FIA which will decide penalties, if any, to teams in F1 and/or to their drivers.
5th July 2007, 14:36
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by jas123f1

let me guess.... you are not a Ferrari fan? :D

not a Ferrari fan but not against them either. def dont dislike them.

Quote:

What is a company in your mind? In my mind a company it's the leading personal in different functions in a company and things like that we are discussion are even more serious if a person who has a leading position in a company is involved.
But as i said IF it's true.. it's serious .. no question about that .. but let's hope it's not as newspapers are mentioning.

you are quite right that senior people in a company carry an implied responsibility just because of the gravitas of their position but not automatic association. for example, if Frank williams decided to shoot ron then should Williams be disqualified because of one mans actions independant of the team?

IF these allergations prove to have substance, and IF McLaren are implicated, then the FIA HAVE to take some action against the team I think. But, if Mike was acting independantly, then I think the buck stops with him if the teams done nothing wrong.
5th July 2007, 14:36
jas123f1

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

If...if...if...that is the contents of the document...you can speculate and make as many assumptions as you like, but without a basis in fact any assumption is on thin ground.

Deciding on a penalty for one party in all of this is premature at best.

Sure, it's a premature and only my opinion of the doc - and i hope there is exaggerations as usually when newspapers are going on.. but it looks serious and that's the reason why newspapers are writing of it in the whole world..

:)
5th July 2007, 14:41
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

for example, if Frank williams decided to shoot ron then should Williams be disqualified because of one mans actions independant of the team?

.

No!! he would definitely get a second knighthood, and be addressed as Sir Frank Williams, Sir!!
5th July 2007, 14:45
Flat.tyres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

No!! he would definitely get a second knighthood, and be addressed as Sir Frank Williams, Sir!!

:laugh:

actually, they get on OK so perhaps they gang up on Flav instead.

"you hold him down ronnie boy and I'll run him over" :D
5th July 2007, 14:46
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

:laugh:

actually, they get on OK so perhaps they gang up on Flav instead.

"you hold him down ronnie boy and I'll run him over" :D

:D :D :rotflmao:
5th July 2007, 14:59
cannonman

I thought there would be more people on this board who would be less than surprised by something like this. Espionage and treachery, I imagine, goes on up and down the pit lane. 'Ol Nige slipped up pretty bad somewhere, but I'll bet my balls that there's more than a few other engineers doing similar sorts of things out there, in F1 and every other racing series.

So should Nige's 'behaviour' (to use ferrari's term) be considered morally reprehensable? Sure, and he should get his due punishment, but don't pretend like this tarnishes the World Championship or that McLaren's cars should be impounded because this kind of activity is nothing new.
5th July 2007, 15:00
Big Ben

OMG... Now I understand everything (it's a shame they've changed the title of the thread-It sounded so witty)

I can imagine now some day Coughlan coming to a meeting saying: well guys, I did my best but I've ran out of ideas but I've had a last one that will save us. I've bought the plans for a ferrari... we will be able to build a ferrari now! imagine a silver ferrari...My contact man promised me that for the right price he ll get us a car... The whole team: Yoohoo! and RD: well done mate... you shall get a raise...
5th July 2007, 15:01
f1rocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by pino

According to ital channel Studio Sport (Italia1) there is another McLaren employer involved in this story. Hopefully we will know more in the next hours, not that I am excited about it anyway :s

Now that is what I was thinking earlier. There has got to be more people involved. Please keep us updated and thanks for the news.
5th July 2007, 15:02
f1rocks

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60502

Edit: I wonder if it was Ross Brawn :D :laugh:

It was Schumy the detective... :D

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