Printable View
I tend to agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
A gamechanger would be to get a rally version of "drive to survive"
Interrest of F1 has exploded since they got that series, why not also in rally, where the best drivers are and many more areas of drama.
This right here. It's time motorsport stops pretending to be road relevant and embrace the entertainment role. WEC is doing that perfectly with the new regulations. The performance is capped and the cars balanced with the goal of creating close racing. The manufacturer's know for sure there won't be an escalating cost due to a development war and they can plan in the expense. Like it or not that's the best way forward for motorsport, sadly the WRC is lagging behind as usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
2017 WRCs were basically Group B revival. They worked to attract manus and fans for 3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
But by end of 2019 the manus started dropping and new ones (Skoda) did not join.
Did the spectacle and drama drop? Nope. Did fan numbers drop? (I don't have facts but I doubt it)
So how come they dropped? According to your explanation everything should have been fine?
How would redoing the same thing again re-attract manus? It wont.
Rally is a combination of spectacle, drama and "normal looking" cars on "normal" roads. You can't just drop one of the sake of the other. F1 or WEC never had the last two parts. They will always have closer fights (cause the cars are on track at same time) and things like Rallycross will always have more "fast" spectacle.
With regards to spectators and electric it depends:
- electric cars can be spectacular in different ways than petrol ones and for a short time you will have "novelty" effect
- for the future you need to look at younger spectators, the 60+ old men talking about 80s will not be main customer group much longer. When I take my son to rally he wonders why there are no electric cars when everyone drives them and they accelerate much faster.
This I totally agree with. It hugely boosted F1 popularity, last time rally had anything similar was "Engineering world rally" in 2007ish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
Promotion is not directly related with rules though.
This thread has cycled back to the evergreen how to attract new manufacturers question, again.
They're not coming whatever the car spec, cost of the car or Netflix shows (loooooooool), or free coverage. Name the candidates.
The biggest difference is that a WRC car by definition has no cost cap, while Rally2 car has. Also the rules state use of certain parts like gearbox (correct me if I'm wrong) for Rally2, and you cannot use a "better" one even if you wanted. Rally2 car uses a lot more "production car" parts, WRC and especially Rally1 more of custom made things, expensive materials. Even the engine cost is hugely different, 30 000 for Rally2 vs 150 000 for Rally1. Remember when Rally1 concept was on the design table, the manufacturers debated about using the WRC engine or the Rally2 engine because one is more expensive but also more reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Skoda (or by extension any mark from VAG, Cupra was mentioned once). They were already on the way and stopped due to slow rule changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Stellantis is talking about a candidate and asking for electric.
Renault was talking about joining if it goes electric.
On the other side you have Hyundai likely leaving in case it doesn't turn electric. ( Right now they are working in Ioniq 5 N and already released Kia EV6 GT).
...
And then you have Toyota pushing hydrogen completely alone.
Why just not loosen engine rules like in Dakar. Let the cars be powered by whatever you want.
My thoughts exactly. I dont like full electric either, but i think that Fia were hoplessly late with hybrid. 2017 spec cars should have been hybrid and 2022 spec cars should have come full electric. That my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
And if we talk about that publicity, fans, drama etc. Then its double sided sword in my opinion. On one hand some say that going electric will lose spectators, but other hand watching 2.5 manus fighting is getting boring aswell and probably will lose spectators aswell. Im so happy that Ott is in Msport next year. So every team have atleast one fast driver and there should be something to watch and spectate.
A key point many here seem to miss. For the record - I am also part of this old geezer group, and love all the nostalgia about "the olden days" - but future will not be defined by the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Renault? I wouldn't count on them. When was the last time they had a factory team in WRC? 40 years ago... or more?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...rally/8440031/Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
1987 with the R11Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/b0...6867b4a49b.jpg
What about the F2 Megane?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
They also had factory team in early 2010s with Megane N4, although in ERC
But it doesn't really matter when was the last time they had factory team... Renault wants to push Alpine as electric sport car brand, they introduced Renault 5 Turbo electric concept etc..
And I bet Audi would go to WRC if it becomes electric. Big brands usually don't last long in Dakar, as was shown by VW, Peugeot or Mini.
With the Megane I'm pretty sure they were just doing Tour de Corse (and maybe Monte?), and Renault wasn't registered as a team because F2 was a lower category. The last actual program possibly aimed at the WRC crown was the 1987 R11.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I don’t think you will see Audi back in WRC anytime soon, electric or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Competing with Hyundai and Toyota is not where they see their position in the market place, if the VW group returns I would think it would be Skoda or SEAT (Cupra) that is the brand to do so.
I hope that I am proved wrong, I would love to see Audi back, but I don’t see it happening.
These conversation suck because they always gets muddy.
Cannot compare a manufacturer's participation now and 1980s or the 90s cups.
Cannot take "manufacturer wants to return to WRC" when all they want to do is have a {Rally2|3|4|5|GT} available for use in..."
My take: Renault, Alpine, Skoda, anything from Stellantis etc etc whoever, will not be full-time paid up investors in the Rally1 promotional circus. That's at least the topic of the conversation I'm interested in.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/your-...c-drivers-5-1/
After Sainz in WRC polls, it’s now Tanak who won.
Clearly zero value to these polls...
According to these polls the killer combination is Tanak in an Octavia WRC :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Danny0405
Correct; they're a 'Premium' brand, and the WRC is not where their competitors are racing. Saying that, I don't think F1 is a good fit for them either.....Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
I'm not overly optimistic in any new manufacturers joining in the near future; what exactly is in the WRC for them that they can't get elsewhere?
I would like to see that 🙂
Lol, Estonians spamming DirtfishQuote:
Originally Posted by Danny0405
Is it so difficult to write down some kind of regulations taking inspiration from the FIA WEC, so that it will accomodate both Hybrid and Electric future's top-class rally cars?
Here we go again: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-c...ack-six-years/
Audi won’t join. Wrc just doesn’t have the roi for them to bother. It’s a shame, but rallying is becoming irrelevant and dare I say it a bit boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
We are back to where we are about 15 years ago. Two manufacturers (and m sport) and it has all become a bit predictable. I love rallying but it doesn’t grip my attention like it once did.
For me it was the spectacle of watching cars you could go out and buy, from multiple manufacturers, with many drivers and not just a handful of cars and drivers as it is now.
I lost interest in the late 2000’s when it was just Ford and Citroen, and Loeb winning everything. I am losing interest again and don’t watch it avidly as I have been. It took 4 manufacturers and a decent amount of drivers to piquet my interest again about a decade ago but it just isn’t doing it for me right now.
And that is me speaking as a 47 year old, that has been interested in rallying for 40 of those years. Unfortunate the sad passing of Ken Block, but the way I see it is Audi were more than happy to throw some money in Ken’s direction and let him do some YouTube videos throwing an Audi around (or Ford, or Subaru) and he would get more interest generated through one video than they would get from running a factory team for a whole season in a championship that not many people other than avid rally fans really care about. Controversial and sad to say, I know, but formula 1, Le Mans 24hrs and even the Dakar rally hold more prestige. Making a drive to survive style docu series won’t change anything either as I have read suggested on here on a couple of occasions.
Populairty comes in waves.... Remember "how Dakar was growing" last year? Well, where is it right now?
We know Dakar is happening, but the coverage and the interest is not even close to what was last year.
I thought Dakar and W2RC would start to EAT WRC, but nope... Just a thing
Same for WEC... Everybody was so excited... but it already died haha Im curious to see the new brands but its already dead. So weird. Maybe WRC will also have its 4 months of big news and promisses... but then, it goes away.
THe modern world is getting SO weird. Not sure you guys agree (especially on the "Wec is already dead again") but Its how I feel. Its like... everything is just propaganda and when we see it at several places ON THE INTERNET it looks incredible and huge.... But nah, racing is ALWAYS just a niche.
did we already discuss this? :D
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-t...facturer-boom/
The WEC is dead? What planet are you on....Tell that to all the manufacturers who have joined - and the fans who made Le Mans already a sell out.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
Obviously Toyota, Peugeot, Ferrari, Cadillac, Porsche and next year Lamborghini, BMW and Alpine are all wrong. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
No one is watching. Then they will leave in 2 or 3 years JUST LIKE they did in Formula-E, u'know?Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
So, its just a spike that will brake everybody and everything.... like the "used to be great" LMP2 class. They reduced the engine power.... and now they will end the class participation in the championship. Im not saying manufacturers are wrong, but - as I said - its waves. And these waves destroy everything. The high focus on these TOP Expensive stuff is ruinning motorsport IMO. Rallycross had a fun BOOM too, look at it now! Remember WTCC? Where is it today?
Idk... I just hope WRC dont go on that route, doing ANYTHING for 4 months of news about MANUFACTURERS JOINING... cuz they leave...
The problem most manufacturers have with joining WRC is that there is so little to gain in today’s atmosphere. I feel even with Toyota dominating WRC the last few years they have gotten very little out of that – luckily Toyota has a motorsport guy at the helm so he will keep them involved regardless. Hyundai has gotten even less (manufacturer champion, does anyone remember?), and now with ex-circuit racing guy leading them I do wonder if they stay for long. If the Red Bull-Ford tie in happens in F1 from 2026 there is even less reason for Ford to be involved in rallying, unless it is a “Malcolm Wilson Special” kind of deal. Renault and Opel (Stellantis) have showed interest but only in electrical rallying. Chinese might come or might not.
It is useless to compare to F1 as the customer element is not really there is true sense, unlike it is in for example WRC and GT’s/WEC. The players who have stayed the longest in motorsport in general are not just factory teams build as marketing effort and/or for showcasing a new technology. They are the ones who have managed to make the customer side a business in itself.
Look at how long M-Sport has managed to hang in there, for years without proper factory support and/or sponsors. It is the strength of their customer side that has given them the backbone. Same with Porsche in GT’s/WEC – even their brand new LMDh program is already a success as a customer business – like basically every single program Porsche has even run in circuit racing (with few exceptions).
The current massive growth of WEC is not sustainable, like it was not in WRC some 20 years ago. The main reason is that most of the players will not manage, or even try to, make it a successful customer game. Porsche will, probably Lamborghini will as well (they are not even coming in to WEC with factory team, it is customer team(s) with factory support). Some others might as well. Toyota and Peugeot probably won’t. At least two efforts are now in WEC (Ferrari, Alpine 2024) because of F1 cost cap and the companies not wanting to lay off a sizable part of their racing division…not really the strongest base to build a long-term programme.
Current Rally1 cars are simply too expensive to make the customer game work, same as the WRC 2017’s were. Only millionaires (or billionaires) are able to buy/rent them, basically. Just ask Malcolm how many Fiesta WRC’s or Puma Rally1’s he has sold. Personally I don’t even like the current cars much, they are too small and too “hot-hatchy” (esp. Toyota/Hyundai) – I much preferred the 1997-2010 WRC’s compared to 2011-2016 WRC’s.
So what is the solution – Rally2+ ? It might serve as a solution especially as the “usual suspects” who would likely join (Citroën and Skoda) have a pretty strong customer-oriented base for their rallying. They would join top level with the backbone already in place. But then…the more players you get on the field, the less chance each of them has for winning, without a spending war. There are “solutions” to that as well, but would WRC like to go down that route…I am of course talking about Balance of Performance (BoP).
WEC has been BoP’d for years already. I personally hope WRC does not because a BoP game as well, although there of course are very good arguments to why it should – it is very difficult to lay out a rules framework where you at the same time keep costs in (relative) check, while at the same time making sure someone is not completely locked out from the fight for the win because they locked in a bad design.
There is a need for balancing, yet I have never seen BoP done right – and can it even be done? When you win when BoP is in place, do you win because of it or regardless of it? In WEC almost all competitiveness arguments always circle around BoP, the winner boasting that they won even with the current BoP, with the loser complaining that they have no chance with the BoP as it is. A cost cap is maybe better option, but not without it's problems (managing the cost cap costs money, just check how many administrative professionals F1 teams have now hired) - also with rallying you have to have a pretty low cost cap for it to work.
So a WRC with BoP and/or cost cap might lure some new players to the game, even if there is not “cutting edge hydrogen” whatnot in the rules on offer. But would they come to play and maybe win, or stay in the long game making the customer side a business and thus having the backbone even during (possibly multiple) lean years to say to the board: “Yeah we might not be winning now but we are still business wise on good track.”
My personal guess is that from 2025 we will see maximum 3 manufacturers in WRC. Small chance that 1 player would be new and one current would leave. Rules will be Rally1 based for 3 years (2025-2027), not 100% electric, not hydrogen. For 2028 a completely new rules framework will be in play, then some new players will join – new energies (plural) will be involved.
You're not incorrect, but do you think NASA cancelled the space shuttle program because they didn't sell any?Quote:
Originally Posted by [WRCRR]
On BoP, why is it necessary again? Current Rally1s have the same size engine with the same hybrid unit, all weighing the same with wearing the same tyre manufacturer's rubber and the same fuel. Times are seconds apart.
If they want(seems not) any new manus, they should put the new regulations out this year, otherwise new teams don't have enough time to build and develop the car..
rally1 is not for race customers, there's rally2 for this. rally1 is battlefield for the few manus that want to invest. rally2+ is basically a copy of the current rally2 concept. only customer brand will join, and not with factory team. rally1 manu will leave, or have customer racing dept.Quote:
Originally Posted by [WRCRR]
bop will be needed only if fia will liberalize propulsion (hy, electric, hydrogen,...)
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/w...ands/10424118/
New rules for 2025 should be introduced in two months. They're also pretty confident another manufacturer will join.
They were pretty confident before the Hybrid regulations that a new manufacturer will join, sooooo would not be so sure about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Eli
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...v=fa868488740a
Interesting interview with Millener about opening up the championship to independent teams/constructors to combat the waning interest of car manufacturers.
In my opinion a F1 style approach where you are not dependent on manufacturers would be perfect, but WRC isn't a business like F1 is, so how could this work commercially?
This would be the best, for sure would help create a customer program too. Also as I said in another thread, there is need to loosen or at least change powertrain rules. No one will join WRC when they need to develop an expensive brand new purpose-made engine that cannot be used in any other series or road car and is almost the most expensive part of Rally1. No matter if there is hybrid or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Doubt.... But both FIA and WRC know that Toyota wants hybrid, Renault wants electric, Stellantis wants hybrid... Work with that cuz it sounds interesting and "it looks like a Rally2+ thing"Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli