If he braked, I'll agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Printable View
If he braked, I'll agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Here , let me toss another log on the fire .
Max downshifted five times just before Lewis hit him . He likely didn't brake at all there .
Back to that first "Mick" incident .
I believe one TecPro block was pierced , and thus , it's integrity compromised . Since it was a popular spot to park , it needed fixing .
That's not Masi's fault .
Blame Tilke and his son for this stupid track .
I love it actually. It gives the drivers a very different kind of challenge they don't experience anywhere else. It is unforgiving as street tracks usually are. It is super fast, not for the weak-hearted. The teams and drivers have lots of data about this track now, there is much to learn from when they come back here next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Yep, I'm mostly in the same camp... although I can also understand why some see it as too dangerous, and too unforgiving.
The only reason it was an interesting race was the two red flags. That disrupted what would have been ho-hum Mercedes 1-2. Terrible for wheel-to-wheel racing (isn't that what they want next year?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
How many laps were run under the VSC or safety car?
There are a lot more interesting tracks that I would put in the schedule before this one. But Saudi's is giving F1 a lot of money, so it will be in the schedule probably permanently.
Actually, there were lots of great wheel to wheel racing at this race. It had us all at the edge of our seats as all manner of dramas occurred. It was exciting and it would be much better next season with drivers being more experienced of the characteristic of this track.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
10 second timed penalty and 2 penalty points for Max. Basically have let him get away with brake testing Lewis, which they clearly show in their decision that he did.
https://twitter.com/rachelbrookestv/...560708608?s=21
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
Fair points.. could well be because of it being such a critical stage in the championship. Let's see how it does next year if it isnt.
Yep. Good for those of us that wait for facts rather than speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
It still makes no sense though unless Max thought he would just come through. Why risk the collision when it's possible that you could be the one that comes out on the worst end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
So he did brake.. fair enough. In that case Max is guilty as charged. If he was going to brake to try and make Lewis pass before the DRS line he should have been fully over to the right IMO.
horrible. Dangerous due to blind corners everywhere, without there being a reason for it, it was just deliberately build this way. I wonder how much money has been paid to the fia to allow them to run here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
it seems to have been specially designed to cause crashes and safety cars.
so he braked and hamilton didn't pass him, so he braked more. and verstappen gets a penalty for trying to do what the fia told him to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
i wonder if they will give russel a penalty because mazepin crashed into him.
there should be some rule that if you are given the chance to overtaken, and you refuse to do so, you loose the place.
Yes but I don't think Lewis had been told Max had been ordered to give the place back which would also have played a major parr in what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Lewis should have been informed of what was going to happen quicker and Max shouldn't braked so hard or at least given him more space to pass but IMO it wasn't Lewis's fault at all.
For the most part it's crap IMHO. Very similar to Qatar in the sense it seems challenging to drive but this one is even faster. Neither really have much of anything for passing opportunity except the long straights.... and DRS passes are boring usually. It's really a shame too, because I think this track had great potential and if you ignore the lack of racing line options it appears stunning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
The number of red flags, safety cars, and VSCs will only probably increase if the field tightens up.
Personally I'd be glad if this track, Qatar, and Monaco all disappear from the calendar. Maybe Baku as well. While qualification is a big part of racing it shouldn't often mean the majority of the weekend. I want the ability for cars to pass and race on track, and too many tracks don't allow that these days.
I feel the biggest one at fault here is mercedes for not informing hamilton on time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
if you look at the footage, verstappen has already slowed down from 8th to 3th gear before he even started braking. Hamilton was already down from 8th to 5th. After that verstappen braked at about 50%.
So it wasn't like verstappen breaked suddenly or actually hard, it was just hamilton staying right behind because he didn't want to overtake, because he wasn't aware.
I feel it was stupid from max not to move more to the side, but in the end i stay with race incident.
Engine braking is considered braking. The tecpro barrier was not dangerous enough to need replacing. It was shuffled back into position which they could have done under safety car conditionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
The danger of Jeddah is characteristic of street circuits in general. They all have lots of blind corners, hard unforgiving walls or amco barriers and multiple crashes. Until the drivers fully understand the characteristics of this track there would be crashes. I have a feeling there would be fewer crashes next season. As the drivers would learn to respect this track better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
a coward's decisionQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
so brake testing your opponent that causes significant damage to the car is simply a 10sec penalty. ok got it! smh
But despite them calling it that way, jeddah is no street circuit. It was designed from a cleen sheat, not being restricted by existing infrastructure. There was no reason to make it this narrow and blind or to put the barriers this close, unlike real street tracks like baku or monaco.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
They deliberately designed it to be this dangerous and awfull. Another hideous tilke design.
It's ridiculous. They actually admit in the notes that he braked erratically - a sudden 2.4g deceleration. I can't see how this is anything other than an attempt to take your opponent out. This should be an automatic disqualification. This type of dangerous, potentially lethal driving, does not belong in F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
FORMULA 1 STC SAUDI ARABIAN GRAND PRIX 2021 - RACE RESULT
03 05 Dec 2021 Jeddah Corniche Circuit, Jeddah
https://www.formula1.com/en/results....ce-result.html
After Max’s penalty, ‘it was not worth fighting anymore’
Date published: December 6 2021 - Michelle Foster
Penalised in Saudi Arabia for what in Brazil went unpunished, Max Verstappen says he gave up on the win after being told of his five-second penalty.
Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton put on a thriller at the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, the title protagonists racing wheel-to-wheel no fewer than three times.
One of those battles, on lap 37, saw Hamilton get a run on the Red Bull driver, using DRS to attempt a pass around the outside at Turn 1.
Verstappen defended with both drivers off the track, and the Dutchman holding onto P1, similar to what happened at Turn 4 at the Sao Paulo Grand Prix.
This time, though, the championship leader was given a five-second penalty for for leaving the track and gaining advantage.
“When they told me that I had the five-second penalty, it was not worth fighting anymore because I would never pull a gap of five seconds,” Verstappen said.
“So yes, a lot of action, a lot of things that happened.
“I think ultimately, we didn’t really have perfect pace in the race, maybe also the medium tyres were not amazing to the end. I think the hard tyres [of Hamilton] had a bit more life in them I think, but as always, it’s easy to say afterwards.
“At the end, that five-second penalty I don’t think is correct but at the end of the day I don’t want to talk about it that much because they don’t deserve any words coming out of my mouth.
“I find it interesting that I am the one who gets a penalty when both of us ran out of the white lines.
“In Brazil it was fine but suddenly I get a penalty for it; you could see both of us didn’t make the corner. But it’s fine, I also don’t really spend too much time on it. We have to move forward.”
Told to give the position back to Hamilton after that lap 37 moment, Verstappen slowed only for Hamilton to also slow down and stay behind him.
The Dutchman then braked, and Hamilton drove into the back of him ripping off the right-side of his front wing.
“They told me to give the position back,” Verstappen explained, “and so immediately when I heard that on the radio I just pulled off to the right, showing that I was going to move over, and I braked, downshifted, and he just stayed behind me.
“So I was just looking in the mirror and I’m slowing down and I think there was a bit of a miscommunication and he ran into the back of me.”
Verstappen was given a post-race 10-second time penalty for erratic driving.
Hamilton won the grand prix and took the fastest lap point with Verstappen P2 despite his time penalties.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...ian-penalties/
Verstappen drove this race like he was let out of an asylum. He got away with so many infractions, the stewards did not deal each them as they would normally. So he is encouraged to drive putting other drivers at risk. He overtook off the track, ran Hamilton off the track and brake tested him. If any other driver had done all of these things in one race, they would have been shown the warning flag and subsequently the black flag. All the decisions taken by the steward's office were calculated to have as little impact on him[Versdtappen] as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I remain adamant that they are on the take. The negotiation of penalty to give Verstappen between Masi and Horner is a very clear indication of that. Rather than apply the rules they invested more time in trying to find a penalty that was acceptable to Redbull.
Most of the time we have seen incidents like this in the past it has been the following driver that runs into the back of the car in front that comes out worse. Luckily it didn't end up ala Coulthard-Schumacher 1998. It would have been a shame for the championship to finish that way. Spa 1998 was brain fade from Coulthard, last night I think was intentional from Max as he could clearly see how close Lewis was in his mirrors. Unfortunately because this is now just a slap on the wrist for Verstappen I think he won't learn anything and he could possibly try to take Lewis out next weekend in Abu Dhabi. He still has the advantage of more wins. At minimum he should have received a 10 place grid drop for AD but I think disqualification from this race would have been the most appropriate action.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Imagine a referee negotiating with a competitor. This is effectively what happened last night. I think it must be a requirement moving forward that any incidents like this ALL get investigated and decided by the Stewards. Have multiple Steward teams if necessary per race and delegated different incidents to them. There doesn't just have to be one. Utter nonsense negotiating with them like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
fify,Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodaze
We had doubts at Baku, what great races, that venue produced. We would warm to Jeddah in time. It is different, quirky and nerve-wracking. But pure adrenaline racingQuote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
I had mentioned that Max had geared down 5 times , but I hadn't seen that Lewis was gearing down as well , so can we then surmise that Hamilton actually knew what Max was doing ?Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
He actually knew Max was slowing down to let him by , which is not what he implied when he said he didn't get the message from the team until after the incident .
He may not have had official word from the team , but it seems like he was wise to the gambit Max was trying to work as he was also gearing down to more match Max's speed .
Both drivers were aware , clearly , that the first to cross the DRS line was at a distinct disadvantage . Both were slowing .
Max was not obligated to be on one side or other of the track , so chose the cleanest line and stayed there , leaving his opponent the least advantage he could .
Lewis approached , saw Max slowing , and slowed down , himself , and closed up tight .
Now , he wouldn't have known Max would press the whoa pedal , but he really didn't need to be directly behind him or that close , especially if he already suspected Max and he were in a race to slow down before the line .
As for Max , touching the brakes was over the line . Not cool .
Until that point in that incident , blame the stupid DRS , with it's stupid DRS line for prompting the drivers to be stupid .
It was established that the information that Verstappen was asked to give the place back to Hamilton had not reached Hamilton at the point when Verstappen was slowing down. Hence, he would not have known why Verstappen was slowing down. There might be a debris on the track for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
The slowing down was not the issue, it was the sudden braking that immediately followed that caused Hamilton to crash into the back of him. The braking was clear in the relative telemetry and the reason why he was found to be at fault.
We have criticized Verstappen for some things. What we have not done is praise him for some of the great driving that he did during the race. He move to take the lead from 3rd at the restart after the Mazpin, Perez crashes, was brilliant. That was the sort of move that we typically praise Hamilton for. But the seven-time champion was comprehensively made to look ordinary off the start.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
For me, both knew exactly what game they were both playing. Ultimately Max just messed up when trying to force Lewis to pass..
Despite what Lewis said publicly about not being told what was to happen, there can be little doubt that he knew Max would be told to give the place back, he isn't stupid.. he has a sharp racing brain. While I might not be buying his official explanation for a sec, neither am I blaming him for it.
Having to play silly DRS advantage games shouldn't be part of F1 but it is pretty much inevitable due to its mere existence.
Deactivating the DRS for both drivers for a lap in such a situation might be an idea worth looking into.
I know but I think Lewis is going to take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
That track sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
No.
Oh , gimme a break , dude .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
He knew what Max was doing . He dropped 3 gears , when both of them should have been racing , instead of playing "silly-beggar" .
He drove right up behind him , so what do you think his message to Max was at that moment ?
He was telling Max he wasn't going to pass before that detection line .
He knew Max's game by then and being so tight that even he , a guy with the reflexes of an adrenaline-soaked cat , couldn't avoid a rapidly slowing car ahead just wasn't smart .
They were racing to slow down , and the guy behind is always going to hit the guy ahead in that scenario .
It was a ludicrous moment for F1 .
Max , for sure , should not have hit the brakes .
But , his instruction was to slow down and Let Lewis by .
Lewis should not have been that close behind , but was told that Max would let him by , not that he must pass .
So , you see , a stupid situation set up by stupid DRS rules .
true, Hamilton was trying to use the slipstream to slingshot pass Verstappen, just as Verstappen realized that the DRS detection point was fast approaching and needed to slow down. They were both playing gamesQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I disagree- I think it's a great track. A bit clumsy in places but great to see the drivers having to push like that. Skill and bravery came to the fore.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
The track workers suck , too , if I may say so .Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
When the head guy , Masi , has to be out there pointing out the oil on the track , then has to direct them to put down the stay-dry , and then has to direct them in the direction that they should be pushing the broom , you know that nobody is trained nearly enough .
He had to be on the scene everywhere to keep things together .
The Saudi organization was far from ready .
Nice light show , though .
I heard the fact stated during the telecast that it has been deemed the fastest "street-style" track in the world .
To me , that explained a lot .
A good advertising slogan is worth more than having a safe track , or a track where you can pass without DRS , or any remote chance of making it through the race without multiple safety cars and/or multiple lengthy red flag periods .
He was slowing , too .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Lewis was absolutely not looking for a slipstream .
Yes , they were both playing games .
If Hamilton had just kept his foot down, max would have never got past him at the end of the straight, even with drs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
But that's always easy to tell in retrospective. I understand why lewis didn't wanted to pass and stay as close as possible.
Should do away with DRS on the final lap, was unfair on ocon
Even with drs, bottas shouldn't be able to overtake before the finnish.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe1888cfc
Something must have happened in the corner before, but i can't seem to find a video.
I think Hamilton suspected that Verstappen was up to something that could be bad for him if he pass. He knew he had to take precautions not to get into a race-ending crash. His hesitance was partly due to that and probably the DRS detection point as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Verstappen was driving in a very unusual way in front. He initially appeared to give way, then he moved into the centre of the track and slowed momentarily and sped up momentarily and slowed again then hit the breaks hard. Then after the crash, he sped off into the distance not giving up the place until he arrived at the next DRS detection point where he gave up the place properly just before the DRS detection point and immediately used DRS to reclaim the lead. Unfortunately for him, once he had used up the DRS, he did not have the speed to keep Hamilton behind on the following straight.