I was sure I read that somewhere , but I can't find it now .Quote:
Originally Posted by schmenke
Maybe I got that wrong .
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I was sure I read that somewhere , but I can't find it now .Quote:
Originally Posted by schmenke
Maybe I got that wrong .
Sure I read that the Malaysian Authorities had released information that the senior Captain of the flight was the chief suspect.They had gone through his computer seized from his home,and he had been practicing landed on very small runways,was having marriage problems ,and he had tried to clear his computer of his activity on landing on small runways ,but the experts had been able to recover the information
And now another Malaysian Airline plane missing,but this time it is found crashed and fiercely burning in Eastern Ukraine ,The Russians say it never entered their airspace .Believed shot down by missile from another plane ,over 290 on board .This is disastrous !
Not another plane. More likely ground based.Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
Ukrainian rebels first claimed responsibility but now are denying it. Apparently a ground bases missile, not air to air. One of the sides almost certainly did it, much less likely the missile came from Russia.
Fly Malaysian Air at your own risk!
Malaysia Airlines again :eek:
Just saw the news after your post driveace....whatever the reason this plane crashed, expect another long investigation without any real outcome since both sides will try to pin the blame on the other. (Russia and Ukraine that is)
yeah Starter: think people will really be worried flying that airline now however irrational it may be..co-incidence of the weirdest type.. Malaysia was the first international airline I actually flew 10+ years ago on a flight to KL.
https://tackk.com/mh17
russia forces can easly transport "Buk" to terrorist(other russia army) controled area.
Buk was saw in Snizne. City was controlled by russia army.
Fuck you putler!
There was a report that rebels stole "Buk" surface to air missiles from the Ukrainian air defense base weeks days ago.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/ukr...715/1606791724
The world is a sh!thole going to hell in a lead sled !!!!
A lot of TV news and web sites report that the airliner may have been shot down by the Buk missile system that pro-Russian separatists have stolen from Ukrainian air defenses. However, the Buk missile system is quite sophisticated and one of the more advanced and more feared SAM systems today. How could a bunch of pro-Russian rebel hicks in East Ukraine learn to operate it in just a few days? Could there be Russian operatives involved? If the evidence comes out that Russian operatives have helped the pro-Russians to operate the Buk SAM, it will be a pretty damning reason to say cancel the Russian GP.
To get the idea how advanced the Buk missile system is you may want to recall that it is believed that Georgians have shot down a supersonic Russian Tupolev-22M bomber using one of these during the 2008 war in South Ossetia (Georgians also got the Buk system from their Ukrainian allies). Tu-22M is a supersonic, long-range heavy bomber that in theory was designed to be good enough to get close enough to the NATO air space to launch missiles armed with nuclear warheads, so taking down one of these with a land-based missile is quite a feat. I am curious if people with some military background could comment on this.
Do we still believe that there aren't russians soldiers sent from russia to help the poor helpless oppressed russians from ukraine? If they have this fancy systems they have the people to operate them. These rebels are way too efficient to actually believe they are nothing but average Ivans who quit their jobs, grabbed the household's kalashnikov and went to fight the oppressors.
I can't say about the system in question, but having been around some of the smaller systems in the military, part of what makes them so good is often ease of operation. On shorter range fire and forget type systems it really doesn't take much work on the user end. You acquire a target and let it go. I would imagine it's similar on long range systems, as the missile must really do the homing and tracking work mostly in flight.
The majority of military hardware is designed to be user friendly. They know people are dealing with fatigue, stress, crap weather, etc often during use, and have to consider all those factors when they design things.
This is correct. The use of modern weapon systems, except for the most sophisticated, is fairly easy and these should be also. It's the long term maintenance of the weapons which require training and expertise.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I can imagine the Russian "advisers" saying the Russian equivalent of "Oh crap, you've really screwed the pooch." when they realized what had been done.
This looks like Russia had it's hand in it !
Obama will have some big decisions to make on this issue,could it lead to another cold war ?
I would be amazed if there weren't Russian special forces in Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
It does look like the 'rebels' have gotten a bit trigger happy and got carried away.
Setting the launcher up, locking it on a target and firing the missile might be easy but identifying civilians from military, friend from foe would require further equipment and a lot more expertise. That clearly wasn't present.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Whether the Russians supplied their friends with the launchers or whether they were captured by the rebels from the Ukrainians, the fact that they were firing at targets 30,000 ft and above without bothering to identify them whilst airliners were still routed over the area meant this was a disaster waiting to happen. Clearly someone in the group coordinating the rebels from Moscow had a few brain cells missing when they okayed the blind targeting of high flying aircraft in the region, they would have known that airliners were in the area because they would have gone on to fly over Russian territory later (real Russian that is, not seized). Given that airliners flying east over this region were fast approaching Russian airspace they could well have been in contact with Russian ATC as they were shot down.
Wars have started over less. At the very least its time for Putin to quit playing in Eastern Ukraine and get his guys out of there.
There is film on TV of the suspected Rocket Launcher being spirited back across the border to Russia,and also recording on public media site of a guy admitting just shot down a plane ,that recording has now been removed ,but the Americans have the guys name.Can the Americans arrest this guy before the Russians eliminate him ?
^well the most likely answer to that is No.
Also even if it is proved that Soviet..err Russian ;) army was behind all this, does anybody really have the guts,time and money to go to war on this? Because getting an apology from them or imposing sanctions or a UN reprimand aren't real solutions to the innocent people who actually died in this.
The video you mention was displayed on major news channels (BBC world news I think) and it was discussed here:Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-...hat-1607521886
Personally, I do not consider this video as an evidence of any kind. Has anyone so far proved where and when exactly was this video filmed? Where was the vehicle headed? In the middle of an extremely tense information war fought between Ukraine and Russia, I'd take it with a grain of salt, specially since Ukrainians seems to have provided the video to TV channels with comment "vehicles heading back to Russia" as if they already have a proof that the vehicles came from Russia to begin with. Do you know that Ukraine also owns the same kinds of missile systems? And by the way, the rebels have claimed weeks ago that they captured Buk missile system from _Ukrainian_ air defense. So far this video is not a proof of a Russian complicity but one data point. If there were a few more videos of the same incident showing yes this vehicle was _certainly_ heading into Russia, then that would be a pretty damning evidence.
Yes, the recorded did sound pretty damning to me. However, what authority do the Americans have to arrest this guy? Perhaps he visits Las Vegas on weekends? And on what grounds? Have any American laws been broken?Quote:
also recording on public media site of a guy admitting just shot down a plane ,that recording has now been removed ,but the Americans have the guys name.Can the Americans arrest this guy before the Russians eliminate him ?
Good pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by zako85
America has no role in this, unless asked by NATO which we do have a responsibility to support. And you are correct, no American laws were broken. The various European countries seem loathe to take any real action as they don't want to be cut off from Russian gas with winter three or four months away. Let them deal with it. Although the parallels with the apeasement leading up to WWll are hard to ignore.Quote:
Yes, the recorded did sound pretty damning to me. However, what authority do the Americans have to arrest this guy? Perhaps he visits Las Vegas on weekends? And on what grounds? Have any American laws been broken?
I'm still speechless about this tragic incident. Our country (NL) lost 194 souls and is in absolute shock and anger. It's the only thing people speak about. I've just returned from Portugal this morning and stood still at the huge amount of flowers at Schiphol airport. Surreal. :(
I come from Holland too. We are indeed in shock, angry and furious about these situation. These rebels and Putin are idiots!Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs7TpW4CMAA21Tp.jpg
I think perhaps Malaysian Airlines won't last much longer. With these two incidents although unrelated and there's no rational reason to have to avoid the airline; we don't think rationally and I would be nervous to fly Malaysian.
Most likely is they'll be taken over by another airline.
Another awful tragedy.
That would be certain if it was privately owned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
As they are owned by the Malaysian government they may fare better in the long-term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
All they can do is rename it - "Orchid Airlines" or something like thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28370863
It seems they were in trouble without these incidents http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28370863
You do wonder, if the decision not to avoid this airspace was thus a commercial one? Since other airlines such as British Airways had already chosen not to fly over there.
What was the reaction of the international community when the USA shot down that Iranian airliner in 1988?
Was Reagan accused of being a terrorist/murderer and were sanctions threatened on the US?
Since the US accepted responsibility and blame for their error it's not a good comparison.
But that was much more clear-cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor-y
I just doubt that if Putin accepted some responsibility/remorse for this it would make it ok in Western eyes.
Just glad the Republicans aren't in power at the moment..
First, it should never be OK in anybody's eyes. Second, Putin is probably not capable of admitting in public that he made a mistake (giving the separatists modern weapons). Third, his objective is a new Russian empire so anything which furthers that is not an error in his opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
There is a slightly better than 50/50 chance that will change in November.Quote:
Just glad the Republicans aren't in power at the moment..
Thats a tad harsh IMO. Most airlines carried on flying over the area and the Ukrainians only warned them not to fly at or below 30,000 ft as the rebels weren't thought to have SAMs capable of reaching higher altitudes. The Malaysians followed all the directives they were given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
It wouldn't surprise me if the rebels at the missile controls making the decisions were drunk at the time, I doubt discipline is their strong point.
One way of resolving this issue is to classify the rebel group as a terrorist organisation, not hard given that they have downed an airliner and prevented access to the crash site. Russia could then be labelled as a state sponsor of terrorism, easy to prove given the level of communication between Moscow and the rebels. This would pave the way to much stronger sanctions which would not require consensus across the EU and US to implement at each step. That would hit the Russian economy hard.
Not everyone who shots down a civilian airliner is a terrorist. Recall the downing of Iran Air Flight 655 and Siberian Airlines 1812. If a civilian aircraft is shot by an accident, then the deaths of civilians should be classified as collateral damage or manslaughter.
When I heard the recording of the rebel conversation where they said "Cossacks just shut down an AN-26", things fell into place for me. Not disrespect, but Cossacks historically been a class of peasant warriors, who are not known for their great finesse so to speak. When I think of Cossacks, words rural, rustic, and xenophobic come into my mind. Historically, they formed infantry and cavalry units within the Russian Empire, USSR, and Russian Federation. These are not the guys I'd want to man a deadly SAM system anywhere.
And overall, knowing Russian and Russian culture, watching the videos of the rebel leaders speak on TV makes me think that these guys have an IQ of about 50.
Here is a recording of the PR disaster when a bunch of Cossack militia men attacked the famous "Pussy Riot" punk group in Sochi who were staging some kind of a music video recording there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFrZfluKDrc
The MH17 tragedy as is probably will create some additional political will to introduce harsher sanctions against Russia.
zako85, it's not a that Cossacks as we know from past years (XVII-XVIII). That people named himself a "Cossack" with only one reason - they born at that territory where Cossacks were expelled. And russia propaganda turn on this fact, that it's a true Cossacks and they support Putin.
True Cossacks was Ukranian, and their descendants now fighting with rebels(mercenaries) now at Eastern Ukraine
Looks like a HSBC bank employee in Malaysia is trying to drain money and funds from persons who were on the MH370 flight that vanished .The police know who they are and are also checking other passengers who were on the flight,to see their accounts are not drained
Apparently another "incident" happened to Malaysia Air a couple of days ago it seems.. It was in the daily paper here that the co-pilot on a flight from Thailand died while the plane was in the air. The captain did land the plane asap.
truly jinxed.
Marc Dugain has investigated the 'Maldives location' theories for MH370.
http://www.france24.com/en/20141218-...rcia-cover-up/
Question - how many US Navy ships were in the vicinity of the Maldives in March for a 'cleanup'?
Here we go again ,
An AirAsia Airbus A320 200 series goes missing on a flight from Kuala Lumpar to Singapore with just over 162 passengers and 7 aircrew.
The captain asked for permission to deviate off course due to bad weather .But since then NO emergency call ,or no contact either !Hopefully there can be some wreckage found ,as it's now over 12 hours overdue .Supposed to have a French captain ,but let's pray it's not another Muslim pilot on some mysterious agenda ,The search is abandoned due to failing light.Let's hope something is found quickly as there is still no trace of MH370 !
Yes, here we go again, driveace and his mysterious agenda :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
So donkey your assumption on flight MH370 ,seeing as over 9 months has passed with nothing being found ,but to you it will not be a mystery !Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote