2014 Pre-Season Testing

Still a long way to go for them, at least RB/Vettel got some running this morning but It would take a brave man to bet on them even being able to finish the 1st race.

Hard to read Ferrari are close but the engines are looking second best at this stage, so it's looking more and more like it will be a Mercedes engined car that wins in OZ... but which one? Even Mercedes themselves, despite their high testing millage, aren't without their issues either and have only just gone out for the first time today after a gearbox issue.


Can someone tell me about Qualy engine settings for the new cars... Not that they'd want to until reliability has improved but can they turn them right up for qualy as per the previous era turbo cars?.. or is there a max fuel flow rate or similar handicap?
Will qualy likely be a non event in OZ due to the importance of simply making it to the end of the race?

So finally this year we might see, how really good Vettel is ;)

:stareup: I know the answer to that query. He will start the season in uncharacteristically poor form. His driving, and his car will start gradually improving, and when Red Bull have all their issues sorted out, once again he'll be king-shit behind the wheel. :andrea:

Fastest Times for each Driver over both Bahrain Tests

1. Felipe Massa, Williams, 1m 33.258s,
2. Lewis Hamilton, Mercedes, 1m 33.278s, +0.020
3. Nico Rosberg, Mercedes, 1m 33.283s, +0.025
4. Valtteri Bottas, Williams, 1m 33.987s, +0.729
5. Fernando Alonso, Ferrari, 1m 34.280s, +1.022
6. Kevin Magnussen, McLaren, 1m 34.910s, +1.652
7. Jenson Button, McLaren, 1m 34.957s, +1.699
8. Sergio Perez, Force India, 1m 35.290s, +2.032
9. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 1m 35.426s, +2.168
10. Nico Hulkenberg, Force India, 1m 35.577s, +2.319
11. Jean-Eric Vergne, Toro Rosso, 1m 35.701s, +2.443
12. Daniel Ricciardo, Red Bull, 1m 35.743s, +2.485
13. Daniil Kvyat, Toro Rosso, 1m 36.113s, +2.855
14. Adrian Sutil, Sauber, 1m 36.467s, +3.209
15. Max Chilton, Marussia, 1m 36.835s, +3.577
16. Jules Bianchi, Marussia, 1m 37.087s, +3.829
17. Esteban Gutierrez, Sauber, 1m 37.180s, +3.922
18. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 1m 37.468s, +4.210
19. Marcus Ericsson, Caterham, 1m 38.083s, +4.835
20. Kamui Kobayashi, Caterham, 1m 38.391s, +5.133
21. Pastor Maldonado, Lotus, 1m 38.707s, +5.451
22. Romain Grosjean, Lotus, 1m 39.302s, +6.044

That would be quite a fun Grid for the Australian GP wouldn't it.

Felipe Baby

http://i33.fastpic.ru/big/2014/0302/...10167f6eea.jpg
I realize this grab is not very clear, but the lower number in the red box says that Fred hit 340 kph at Bahrain of all places.
Over 211 mph, what will they reach at Monza? I read (can't find the link) that Ted Kravitz revealed a conversation he had with Nico Rosberg, in which Rosberg stated that 230mph (370kph) would be possible in China. :eek:

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Originally Posted by pino

So finally this year we might see, how really good Vettel is ;)

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Well, it is a bit difficult to see if your car barely gets out of the pitlane so-to-speak...

But that's what Red Bull's tests have been all about. Vettel must be wondering if he can even complete qualifying laps at Melbourne! Because RBR has run out of testing opportunities now and just have to hope some factory tweaks during the next couple of weeks actually make the car run properly!

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

That would be quite a fun Grid for the Australian GP wouldn't it.

Felipe Baby

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If that was the starting grid, without Seb, Kimi, and, Hulk ahead on the grid, Fred would be in p2 by the second turn, and have the Boss for the lead by the end of lap 2 :dork: ;)

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Originally Posted by Tazio

:stareup: I know the answer to that query. He will start the season in uncharacteristically poor form. His driving, and his car will start gradually improving, and when Red Bull have all their issues sorted out, once again he'll be king-shit behind the wheel. :andrea:

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"Uncharacteristically poor form" as in parking the car in flames after a couple of laps.:)

Also the bad news for RBR is that if you can hardly drive any laps as it has been in winter testing, you can't really analyze the car. Which means Red Bull's setups may be well off in the early races, which means they are far from maximizing car's potential and the setups may not be to Vettel's liking, which means he struggles. This even leaving aside all reliability issues! It doesn't mean Vettel is bad like some would like to believe then, but it just reflects on the poor preparation of the team in general. Without preparation you can't perform well.

Long-term outlooks? Largely depends on how much down on power Renault really is, because it is hard to say anything about the horsepower numbers thrown around. However, you'd think at least Red Bull's chassis should be fast, even if a bit (understatement!) unreliable.

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Originally Posted by jens

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Originally Posted by Tazio

:stareup: I know the answer to that query. He will start the season in uncharacteristically poor form. His driving, and his car will start gradually improving, and when Red Bull have all their issues sorted out, once again he'll be king-shit behind the wheel. :andrea:

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"Uncharacteristically poor form" as in parking the car in flames after a couple of laps.:)

Also the bad news for RBR is that if you can hardly drive any laps as it has been in winter testing, you can't really analyze the car. Which means Red Bull's setups may be well off in the early races, which means they are far from maximizing car's potential and the setups may not be to Vettel's liking, which means he struggles. This even leaving aside all reliability issues! It doesn't mean Vettel is bad like some would like to believe then, but it just reflects on the poor preparation of the team in general. Without preparation you can't perform well.

Long-term outlooks? Largely depends on how much down on power Renault really is, because it is hard to say anything about the horsepower numbers thrown around. However, you'd think at least Red Bull's chassis should be fast, even if a bit (understatement!) unreliable.

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That's what I said! :laugh: ;)

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Originally Posted by Tazio

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Originally Posted by jens

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Originally Posted by Tazio

:stareup: I know the answer to that query. He will start the season in uncharacteristically poor form. His driving, and his car will start gradually improving, and when Red Bull have all their issues sorted out, once again he'll be king-shit behind the wheel. :andrea:

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"Uncharacteristically poor form" as in parking the car in flames after a couple of laps.:)

Also the bad news for RBR is that if you can hardly drive any laps as it has been in winter testing, you can't really analyze the car. Which means Red Bull's setups may be well off in the early races, which means they are far from maximizing car's potential and the setups may not be to Vettel's liking, which means he struggles. This even leaving aside all reliability issues! It doesn't mean Vettel is bad like some would like to believe then, but it just reflects on the poor preparation of the team in general. Without preparation you can't perform well.

Long-term outlooks? Largely depends on how much down on power Renault really is, because it is hard to say anything about the horsepower numbers thrown around. However, you'd think at least Red Bull's chassis should be fast, even if a bit (understatement!) unreliable.

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That's what I said! :laugh: ;)

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:D Let's see, what happens then.:)

You reap what you sow ,whilst RB and Horner were grinning at everybody,the other teams were getting on with designing a good engine and car to the new regulations for 2014. Now that time has arrived and the last tests have finished it looks like Vettel and Horner are on the back foot,and sulking .Vettel being told by mr Red Bull that throwing 10 million at the situation will not cure their problems .Looks like Mercedes have got the engine sorted,and now we know why Lewis jumped ship 1 year earlier than we all expected.Hopefully this will lead to closer racing,at least at the beginning of the season,with Mercedes,Williams,Force India,and Ferrari more closely matched.BUT I must admit as in the last 4 years if one team walks away from everybody else as Vettel and RB has done this last 4 years,then it will be switch off time again .I think the first 4/5 races will see lots of retirements till the teams get the gremlins sorted.Just hope Renault and RB are not given a further test and developement period .
Where Vettels German mate vanished too ?

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Originally Posted by Tazio

:stareup: I know the answer to that query. He will start the season in uncharacteristically poor form. His driving, and his car will start gradually improving, and when Red Bull have all their issues sorted out, once again he'll be king-shit behind the wheel. :andrea:

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Sebastian as you say, " once again he will be king shit behind the wheel ," will only happen if Red Bull are able to get the exhaust gases into the diffuser, which will be pretty hard to accomplish, because of the new regulations this season.

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Originally Posted by easy rider

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Originally Posted by Tazio

:stareup: I know the answer to that query. He will start the season in uncharacteristically poor form. His driving, and his car will start gradually improving, and when Red Bull have all their issues sorted out, once again he'll be king-shit behind the wheel. :andrea:

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Sebastian as you say, " once again he will be king shit behind the wheel ," will only happen if Red Bull are able to get the exhaust gases into the diffuser, which will be pretty hard to accomplish, because of the new regulations this season.

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Yeah but that Newey fella' is a sneaky little shit, and there is more than one way to skin a cat ;)

I know that this testing crap isn't reliable....but I am hoping atleast that Redbull cannot resolve these issues in one magic swoop..especially
with no running till friday in Melbourne. This is turning out to be a very exciting wait for me (after years actually) and I hope a Redbull front row on Saturday
will not be the end result of this anticipation.

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Originally Posted by Storm

I know that this testing crap isn't reliable....but I am hoping atleast that Redbull cannot resolve these issues in one magic swoop..especially
with no running till friday in Melbourne. This is turning out to be a very exciting wait for me (after years actually) and I hope a Redbull front row on Saturday
will not be the end result of this anticipation.

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Sadly Red Bull do get some extra running before now and Australia... they have a filming day today in Bahrain.

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Originally Posted by DazzlaF1

Overall though at this rate, my prediction of Marussia and/or Caterham getting their very first points could be coming true

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Yes could be both couldn't it! They've both shown good reliability in testing. In Caterham's case the speed has not looked great, but Marussia have hinted at some respectable pace on occasion. Maybe in Australia they could even beat one of the "senior" Renault teams on pace, if the Renault runners have to go easy on the engines to make the finish.

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Originally Posted by pino

So finally this year we might see, how really good Vettel is ;)

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I don't think we will really know that until he has a proven top-level teammate.

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Originally Posted by Tazio

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Originally Posted by easy rider

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Yeah but that Newey fella' is a sneaky little shit, and there is more than one way to skin a cat ;)

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Hmmmm.....Tazio you just might have a point.

http://grandprix247.com/2014/03/03/butt ... rtook-him/

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Originally Posted by Tazio

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Originally Posted by easy rider

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Yeah but that Newey fella' is a sneaky little shit, and there is more than one way to skin a cat ;)

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Originally Posted by easy rider

[Hmmmm.....Tazio you just might have a point.

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http://grandprix247.com/2014/03/03/butt ... rtook-him/

Thank's for the link daddy-o :smokin:
Everyone knows that RB's are the eayiest to drive fast. Look how good they made Webber look. :dork:
Hey, I meant to say that the RB10 looks fast just sitting on the track at Jerez, except they had so many problems that I decided to reserve judgment. Plus I've been trying to figure out why Kimi and Fred were working hard for 135's. The latest theory and intimated by sources in Modena. Ferrari didn't have an electric system that would allow them to run KERS, ICE, and MGU-k for one whole lap at full use of all units without overheating...something. Maybe they mean the batteries. Anyway with twice the number of engine tech. at Mercedes than they have at Ferrari, it sort of creates a new Evil Empire :vader: :angryfire :burn: :vampire: :devil: :crazy:

Another view on the RB/Renault brewing fiasco, from the Judge13...

http://thejudge13.com/2014/03/04/hippos ... -no-mercy/

:facelick:

Great!! Thanks for the link da da da daddy-o :stareup: :bandit:

Saw this on another forum where Motorsport-total.com released an article about what marko had to say about renault in a tv-show called 'Servus TV'

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"Der Auftakt kommt für uns mindestens zwei Monate zu früh. Und das wird eine ganz schwierige Angelegenheit, das aufzuholen. Momentan wissen wir nicht, in welchem Zeitrahmen es überhaupt möglich ist und ob es möglich ist."

The start of the season comes at least two months too early for us. It's really going to be hard to catch up. Right now, we don't even know how long it's going to take and if it is even possible to catch up at all.

Marko about the reasons of why renault ran into troubles came jerez and why they still can't seem to find a solution:
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"Renault hat im Vergleich zu Ferrari und Mercedes den Motor nur als Verbrennungsmotor auf dem Prüfstand laufen lassen - ohne Getriebe. Mit dem Getriebe kommen thermische Probleme, Vibrationen. Als dann die gesamte Einheit zum Einsatz gekommen ist, hat man erst gesehen, welche Probleme auftreten - davor dachten die, dass ihr Antriebsstrang funktioniert."

Compared to ferrari and mercedes, renault did let the engine run as an internal-combustion engine only in their test bed - without the gearbox (whatever that means?!). [But] you'll get thermall problems, vibrations when you include the gear(box). They first figured out there were problems, once the entire unit was tested - before that, renault thought their drive train would work as anticipated.

Marko about the driveability of the renault engine:
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"Das Zusammenspiel der unterschiedlichen Elemente des Antriebsstrangs sei der Kern des Übels. Zudem hat man noch enorme Probleme mit der Fahrbarkeit: Die Motorleistung setzt zu abrupt ein, und bei Vollgas liegt man gegenüber Ferrari und vor allem Mercedes im Rückstand." [...] "Zuerst steigst du aufs Gas, aber die Leistung kommt nicht [...] und dann kommt sie urplötzlich, die Räder drehen durch, dadurch rutscht das Auto, du verlierst Speed, aber auch Drehzahl, weil du wieder vom Gas musst."

'The interplay between the different elemenst of the power unit is the core of all problems. Plus there are tremendous problems in terms of driveability. The output of the engine is way too sudden. Also we're behind ferrari and mercedes 'full throttle wise'
[...] 'You tap the gas, but their's simply no power [...] just to realize it comming extremely sudden at one point, you get wheelspin, as an result, the car goes sideways, you lose speed as well as revs, due to the driver having to go off the power.'

Marko about what kind of 'failure'/'mistake' the renault power unit suffers from:
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[...] deutet an, dass es sich nicht um ein mechanisches, sondern vorrangig um ein Software-Problem handelt.
[Marko] implies, that it is not a mechanical, but primarily a software-problem.
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[...] "denn scheinbar ist auch die Korrelation ein Problem. Das, was der Renault-Prufstand anzeigt, ist in der Realität nicht gegeben."

[...] 'apparently there's also a corellation problem. The data comming from the renault test-bed doesn't match what's going on in reality'/[or what it is supposed to be like in reality]

Marko about Red Bulls cooling-issues
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"Das liegt daran, dass wir von Renault keine Daten bekommen haben, wie heiß das wird, wie viel Luftdurchfluss man benötigt."

'The reason for that is, we didn't get any data about how hot it would get, how much airflow would be required.' (He's also saying that the renault teams got the power unit in its whole in jerez first)


Almost unbelievable. Lots of finger pointing will likely be done by both sides but If there is much truth in what Marko says, what more can one really say about Renaults monumental basic failures here?
If true I just feel really sorry for all the Renault engined teams... especially Caterham and Lotus who were already teetering on the brink of oblivion.

Well, are you really surprised? I wrote the 'Hippo's View from the Waterhole' article linked above before the Marko interview was published. It was plain to see for everyone that Renault had effed up. The software broke down on the very first day of testing at Jerez, which means they hadn't tested it at all.
Renault operated on half the budget of Merc and Ferrari. How do you do that? Well 20 years in the industry have taught me that the first thing companies do is getting rid of expensive experts and hire younger, less experienced people, who they can pay less. We have a saying in Germany: "Kaufste Scheisse, kriegste Scheisse." (If you order shit, you'll get shit). Renault never tested their software in an emulator. They vomited some modem noise into a file and hoped it would work, but it didn't. How in the name of all that's holy did they expect to do with 250 engineers what Merc threw 500 engineers at?

That was you, dj? :eek: I went and re-read it and there are some similarities in writing style, though I suspect a spell-checker was used for that one :D

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

That was you, dj? :eek: I went and re-read it and there are some similarities in writing style, though I suspect a spell-checker was used for that one :D

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Yep, of course I use a spell-checker ;) In fact I'm usually ribbing the judge about the fact that my articles have less spellink mistakez in them than his and I'm a kraut, while he's a native speaker :D

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Well, are you really surprised? I wrote the 'Hippo's View from the Waterhole' article linked above before the Marko interview was published. It was plain to see for everyone that Renault had effed up. The software broke down on the very first day of testing at Jerez, which means they hadn't tested it at all.
Renault operated on half the budget of Merc and Ferrari. How do you do that? Well 20 years in the industry have taught me that the first thing companies do is getting rid of expensive experts and hire younger, less experienced people, who they can pay less. We have a saying in Germany: "Kaufste Scheisse, kriegste Scheisse." (If you order shit, you'll get shit). Renault never tested their software in an emulator. They vomited some modem noise into a file and hoped it would work, but it didn't. How in the name of all that's holy did they expect to do with 250 engineers what Merc threw 500 engineers at?

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Well, yeah, I was actually very surprised. It's not like Renault are a small time engine manufacturer with inadequate resources and/or experience but as you say, the old guard will be long gone replaced, it seems, by lower paid and less experienced individuals fresh out of Uni.
What I really can't get my head round is how Red Bull even tried to build and package a car without knowing the engine and ERS cooling requirements, I've only recently (lightly) studied thermal and aerodynamic efficiency in jet turbine designs in Aero engineering which obviously sits very high in the long list of design requirements in the world of aviation... but I'd have thought that was a fairly basic fundamental requirement that really needs to be known at design stage with F1 cars also if you were serious about competing at the quick end of the grid?

Liked your 'Hippo' article btw.. :D

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Well, are you really surprised? I wrote the 'Hippo's View from the Waterhole' article linked above before the Marko interview was published. It was plain to see for everyone that Renault had effed up. The software broke down on the very first day of testing at Jerez, which means they hadn't tested it at all.
Renault operated on half the budget of Merc and Ferrari. How do you do that? Well 20 years in the industry have taught me that the first thing companies do is getting rid of expensive experts and hire younger, less experienced people, who they can pay less. We have a saying in Germany: "Kaufste Scheisse, kriegste Scheisse." (If you order shit, you'll get shit). Renault never tested their software in an emulator. They vomited some modem noise into a file and hoped it would work, but it didn't. How in the name of all that's holy did they expect to do with 250 engineers what Merc threw 500 engineers at?

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Dawg; I've read that in the engine department Merc has around double the recourses than Ferrari. Did Renault punk out that badly, or are we about to see Ferrari crumble in the wake of the Mercedes juggernaut?

Have Renault and Ferrari been asleep,or complacent or both.We all knew long ago about the new engines for 2014,as all the F1 competitors.Lewis knew Mercedes where going to have a lead in engine development in late 2012,when he left McLaren ,for Mercedes .So how could these French and Italian motor manufacturers be caught out so badly ? There is a possibility there could be some sandbagging by the Italians ,but were Renault SO confident,after the last 4 years ,that they could lie in bed so late and long as to be caught out ?You reap what you sow ! I have NO sympathy !

How do youn know that Ferrari were caught out so "badly"? They logged a lot of lap-dawgs, dawg! :laugh:Do you have some salacious info about the state of the Ferrari PU :dork:
As of now their concerns seem to be with electronics. not lump or aero, just a matter of getting the right amount of current without too much resistance through the system dawg ! :stareup: :stareup: :stareup: :stareup:

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Originally Posted by driveace

Have Renault and Ferrari been asleep,or complacent or both.We all knew long ago about the new engines for 2014,as all the F1 competitors.Lewis knew Mercedes where going to have a lead in engine development in late 2012,when he left McLaren ,for Mercedes .So how could these French and Italian motor manufacturers be caught out so badly ? There is a possibility there could be some sandbagging by the Italians ,but were Renault SO confident,after the last 4 years ,that they could lie in bed so late and long as to be caught out ?You reap what you sow ! I have NO sympathy !

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Who'd you call a psycho? :p :colour: :colour: :colour: :dog: :sailor: :vampire: :kiss: :kiss: :burn: :bones:

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Originally Posted by Zico

What I really can't get my head round is how Red Bull even tried to build and package a car without knowing the engine and ERS cooling requirements

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The start of the season is not going to move, what else could they do? They had to build a car even if they didn't have all the info they needed from Renault. They could have gone down Caterham's route, and made conservative assumptions about what the cooling requirements would be, resulting in a car that's reliable but slow. But Red Bull aren't coming at it from the same direction as Caterham of course. Finishing two places ahead of last is not a satisfactory day's work for them. Given their position in the pecking order I can quite understand why they would not choose to build a car that's too slow to win. I think a season with a lot of DNFs and a handful of wins once Renault get things under control would be more acceptable to Red Bull than a season of consistent mediocrity.