another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by Roamy

WEll growing up I never thought I would see airport security. Obviously the world has changed and we have to deal with those changes. I can tell you in this country probably one of the most
rapidly growing areas is in fact security. I wonder what they do in israel. If you figure out how to collect all the guns let us know. But I assume metal detectors is probably much cheaper and more realistic. If I had school age children I would have no problem with very enhanced security.

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To be honest Israel is more relaxed then the US even though in their case one could argue that the danger is higher then in the US.
And BTW they do not own and wear guns all day long. Funny, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Roamy

wake up ioan all the people are DEAD that is the problem

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Wake up Roamy, the underlying reasons are completely different, and I could even go as far as saying that the USA has the biggest blame for the Spain bombings too as they are the ones who scorned the whole Middle East along with their long time protegee Israel, yet we pay the price for it sometimes.
It is your guns loving culture that doesn't really help in both cases solve the issues for good.

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Originally Posted by ShiftingGears

Absolutely. How discussions of who to apportion blame to after massacres always come back to video games, instead of, say, access to mental health services is completely ridiculous.

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It's all about moving the discussion away from those pesky guns.

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Originally Posted by ShiftingGears

Columbine: Whose Fault Is It? | Culture News | Rolling Stone

An article about the Colombine shootings, by Marilyn Manson. Still poignant.

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One of the best parts:

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

In 1979, metal lunch boxes were banned because they were considered dangerous weapons in the hands of delinquents.

Read more: Columbine: Whose Fault Is It? | Culture News | Rolling Stone
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

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Funny that guns aren't considered dangerous enough to be banned.

I think Morgan Freemans comments have merit.

Surprising message from Morgan Freeman. He blames the media for CT shooting. | Peace . Gold . Liberty

We glamorise celebrity and it doesn't seem to matter what fame you achieve. Singers, celebrity idiots eating Kangaroo balls, sportspeople doing ballroom dancing or a bunch of nobodies acting like fools in a community house. The only way is Essex or The only way is murder.

Guns are a reality in America. The people that seem so deep set in their Conservative ways regarding Abortion, Contraception, Homosexuality, equality for women, different religions and race are appaulled that anyone might attempt to curtail their rights over Gun ownership.

While you have a perverse demand for tittilatio and, the free access to firearms, you will continue to get these attrocities.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The only mental issue is that you euro Types actually believe your government will protect you.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Mail Online

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Believe it or not there is a reason why European Cities rank way above the US cities in the life quality statistics, and crime (well the lack of it) is also one reason for that.
Going from one fire arm related crime to two in a decade would be a 100% increase, but I am sure you already know that. Or maybe not?!
The point is Europe far outnumbers the US in population, yet we come nowhere near in crime levels, let alone fire arms related ones.

Take for Example Vienna, Austria, a 2million inhabitants city where we get about 20 murders in a year. How does that compare to US cities?

Why is that every 2nd TV movie in the US is about cops and crime and drugs and so on? Does it have any connection to your paranoia for owning guns to protect yourselves?

Instead of spitting venom about the mental issues that the euro do not really have, you might want to take a look in the mirror, it might help you see your own issues and cure them.

And yes our governments certainly do a better job at protecting us then yours does, the numbers are out there and tell the story for everyone to see.

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Originally Posted by Starter

What if the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it? Ifs and buts do not make a world you can reasonably live in. I prefer SOME chance as opposed to NO chance. And that's just the difference in our takes on life.

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What are the chances for that? 1%? Maybe less.
Face it, your if's and buts are as you say not making a world you can live in, so what about just getting rid of guns and not needing the What IF the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it?
To difficult? Well face it, you are addicted to guns just as the junkies are addicted to drugs, maybe even worse cause some of them can get rid of their addiction while you are defending yours!

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Originally Posted by Starter

A very clear understanding of the difference between many European countries and the US. Guns have been part of society here since the place was settled - four hundred some years now. They exist in huge quantities. There is NO practical way anyone can make them go away. Therefore, the prudent person will do what they deem to be the best choice for them and their family. Some choose one way and others a different way.

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Weapons have been freely available to Europe's inhabitants thousands of years before America was settled by your ancestors, yet we are not keeping weapons at home, to 'defend' ourselves against imaginary dangers.

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Originally Posted by Starter

And 47 some million Americans own guns with the hugely vast majority never shooting anyone.

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But when they do....
And they do it rather often.

And I am sure that those 40 parents and hundreds of relatives will agree with you that guns are good to have, especially for murdering people.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Do you buy life insurance, fire insurance or auto insurance? Your chances of needing either are small (else the insurance companies would go out of business). Does that mean you are frightened?

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Other than life insurance, which I don't have as it is pointless IMO, the other two are a legal requirement. So what was your point? Does the US law require you to buy guns instead of maybe financing universal healthcare and a better social system that would take people of the streets and greatly reduce the chances of crime, as we did in Europe?

This was from this morning's Sydney Morning Herald:

Brothers in arms, yes, but the US needs to get rid of its guns
There is more to this than merely the lobbying strength of the National Rifle Association and the proximity of the November presidential election. It is hard to believe that their reaction would have been any different if the murders in Aurora had taken place immediately after the election of either Obama or Romney. So deeply embedded is the gun culture of the US, that millions of law-abiding, Americans truly believe that it is safer to own a gun, based on the chilling logic that because there are so many guns in circulation, one's own weapon is needed for self-protection. To put it another way, the situation is so far gone there can be no turning back.
- Former Prime Minister John Howard, SMH, 16th Dec 2012.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

That is what the Poles Said in 1939. The French in 1940. Eastern Europe in 1945. Northern Ireland in 1972-75,76 & 93. The Israeli Olympic Team in 1972. Hungerford England in 1987. Turks in Cyrpus in 1974, Croatia in 1991. Bosnia in 1995. Scotland in 1996. Norway in 2011. .........Shall I go on?

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Yes, go on please. None of these would have been prevented by ownership of guns by civil people.
Or do you think that the Poles would have been able to defeat the German tanks with handguns?
Or are you now advocating adolescents to own guns in Norway?

This might be news to you but we have far less crime around here then you have in the US and we would like to keep it that way, without guns.

PS: And because in your misguided attempt you went as far as listing wars, what about giving lots of high tech weapons to the Talibans to fight the invading US soldiers? You didn't list that did you? I wonder why.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

How to stop a Massacre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZod2qyyN4


What have we learned by that video.

That our Grandfathers are braver than the typical European.

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Might be braver, but certainly not smarter. Just a small difference supported by today's reality.

Actually the British examples you quoted we're committed by people with legally owned guns which have since been banned. Perhaps some fact checking is in order?

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Originally Posted by DBell

Now this is laughable coming from the man from Germany who continues to enlighten us on his expertise on America and how we think and feel. You familiar with the phrase 'The pot calling the kettle black'?

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Your point being? Is it because the US has started more wars then Germany? Is it because the US is still being at war with a bunch of countries in year 2012?! Go on let us know!
We, Europeans learned from our history, you obviously did not.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Your assertion is stupid. That's like saying that if there were no gravity all those kids could have floated to safety. The society here IS armed and no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change that. Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

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Nope, his assertion is right, those people have been killed with freely available guns. Do you think that the guy would have been able to kill all those people without the guns? I highly doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Thank you, we will.

I also can't help but notice that no one has commented on the fact that a gun did not kill those children. A severly wacked person, using a gun as his tool, did. No one seems to want to discuss the role which mental illness plays in incidents like these. So far, reports are that many people knew this guy was disturbed. I'd like to know more about why he was free to do what he did; how well were his mental issues known and to whom; what measures were in place to address them; etc. Find some solutions there and the gun ownership issue is moot.

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You obviously do not realize what you are talking about.
Did you just lose your kid in a school shooting? Who gives you the right to take decisions in the names of those families just based on your fear of life.
You call gun ownership a reality, just like gravity, but the reality that you won't express is that it is your fear of guns that makes you think that owning some yourself would keep you safe! The best of all is that you don't see the stupidity of your situation.
Tell me, if your neighbor buys a Tank what will you do to make sure that he won't destroy you with it? How far does your paranoia go over guns can go?

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Originally Posted by Starter

Fact: Alcohol was banned here early in the century. Result: Plenty of alcohol available, at a slightly higher price and with a new class of criminals engaged in a violent trade.
Fact: Drugs are banned here. Result: Plenty of drugs available, now with a very violent class of criminal getting the huge profits and addicts getting virtually no treatment.
Fact: Guns banned in New York city and Washington DC. Result: Gun violence rampant in those cities and the law abiding general populace helpless.
What, exactly, makes you believe that if you ban guns (assuming you even could) they would not be easily available?

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Fact: You guys are messed up badly.

Over here we never had any of this crap and we are doing just fine, I wonder why is that? Maybe because our government and our mass media doesn't keep telling us that we are in danger every 2 minutes? Maybe because we do not go to war with half the Middle East and instead of paying for war and weapons we use that money to give people a better life quality which automatically takes away the need to go around and commit crimes?

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Originally Posted by Robinho

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"

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As harsh as it might be I fully agree with that.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

yes I agree that the government needs to be kept at bay, that is why we have guns and are not giving them up.

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That is ridiculous, especially when you all tell us how great the US is and the great freedom that you are all living.
Around here we can get rid of our government by simply going out in the street, no need to shoot them or anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

And therein lies the crux of the entire matter. In HK, with a population of well over 13 million in that tiny place, nobody apart from law enforcement officials are permitted to Bear Arms. Not surprisingly, there are no mass murders in Hong Kong. And I would be specious to argue that children are more valued in Hong Kong than the United States of America. Maybe the entire population of The United States of America need an introspective consideration into what lives their people hold sacred, and which lives they can extinguish according to their precious second amendment.

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Oh come on Valve, what with this example? If it is not US and NRA approved it never existed? Who did ever hear about this place Hong Kong? It sure isn't in the US, and if it isn't not in the US then it does not count. End of sarcastic comment. :\

Well the argument is pointless. As said above this is deemed acceptable. The answer to put a stop to it is clear but it seems it isn't welcome so this will continue to happen.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Fact: Alcohol was banned here early in the century. Result: Plenty of alcohol available, at a slightly higher price and with a new class of criminals engaged in a violent trade.
Fact: Drugs are banned here. Result: Plenty of drugs available, now with a very violent class of criminal getting the huge profits and addicts getting virtually no treatment.
Fact: Guns banned in New York city and Washington DC. Result: Gun violence rampant in those cities and the law abiding general populace helpless.

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Conclusion: The American people are faulty.

Henceforth, why are you advocating that they have access to instruments of destruction and death?

This is interesting:

Sig Sauer .223-Caliber Semi-Automatic Rifle Reportedly Used By Ryan Lanza At School Shooting In Connecticut
NBC News, which picked up an article from the Associated Press, said that of the two guns recovered, one of them was a .223 caliber rifle. Earlier, CNN had identified the two guns as a Sig Sauer and a Glock.

Who identified the Sig Sauer as their 2011 Golden Bullseye Award? None other than the NRA.
NRA Magazines announce winners of the 2011 Golden Bullseye Award and Golden Bullseye Pioneer Award
Handgun of the Year, SIG Sauer P226 E2

The AP reported that the Sauer at 0.223 was caliber of the rifle used and curiously "Guns & Ammo" mag thought that it was the "Best Home Defense Caliber".
Is .223 the Best Home Defense Caliber? - Guns & Ammo
Military-style rifles have always been popular in this country, but since September 11, 2001, the sales of the AR15 and its clones have skyrocketed—just look at how many companies are making them now. There are a number of factors behind this—increased exposure to the weapon system via media, fears of terrorism and the realization of just how fun the darn things are to shoot.

It all makes sense now. This was an informed purchase based on recommendations from such law abiding organisations like the NRA. Obviously it must be "fun" to empty rounds of fire into children.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Your point being? Is it because the US has started more wars then Germany? Is it because the US is still being at war with a bunch of countries in year 2012?! Go on let us know!
We, Europeans learned from our history, you obviously did not.

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??? Nothing to do with war. If you look at what I quoted, my response seems clear to me. Maybe someone can help you with the big words.

Maybe you have learned from your history. Of course, you had to kill tens of millions of people and lay the continent to waste to achieve this.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/16/6ajedesa.jpg

Not funny.

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Originally Posted by leighton323

The Americans in the argument on this forum have the outlook of putting an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff to try and save the man who fell. The rest of the world in this argument in this forum have the view of putting a fence up at the top of the cliff to stop the man from falling. If that makes sense to you people. I Wonder what decision has the best outcome.. Hmm

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Actually I am in favor of punishing the PEOPLE who step over the edge.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Believe it or not there is a reason why European Cities rank way above the US cities in the life quality statistics, and crime (well the lack of it) is also one reason for that.
Going from one fire arm related crime to two in a decade would be a 100% increase, but I am sure you already know that. Or maybe not?!
The point is Europe far outnumbers the US in population, yet we come nowhere near in crime levels, let alone fire arms related ones.

Take for Example Vienna, Austria, a 2million inhabitants city where we get about 20 murders in a year. How does that compare to US cities?

Why is that every 2nd TV movie in the US is about cops and crime and drugs and so on? Does it have any connection to your paranoia for owning guns to protect yourselves?

Instead of spitting venom about the mental issues that the euro do not really have, you might want to take a look in the mirror, it might help you see your own issues and cure them.

And yes our governments certainly do a better job at protecting us then yours does, the numbers are out there and tell the story for everyone to see.

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Those ranking are based on what Europeans think is important for quality of life. For me FREEDOM is number one and in that Europe is sadly lacking. You may think you have freedom but every day I hear reports of how such basic freedoms of Speech, Thought and Self-Determination are virtually non-existent.

If you like that great. but don't for even one second think that you are free and I want to live that way.

Has anyone else here seen the movie "God bless America." ?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Weapons have been freely available to Europe's inhabitants thousands of years before America was settled by your ancestors, yet we are not keeping weapons at home, to 'defend' ourselves against imaginary dangers.

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That is because we do. I so much want the US out of NATO. I would give you guys 3 years tops before you fall apart.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Might be braver, but certainly not smarter. Just a small difference supported by today's reality.

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He has his money, his life and, most important his dignity. He is way smarter than you.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Your point being? Is it because the US has started more wars then Germany? Is it because the US is still being at war with a bunch of countries in year 2012?! Go on let us know!
We, Europeans learned from our history, you obviously did not.

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The US has Never started a war. Check you facts. The Germans on the other hand.......

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Originally Posted by ioan

Fact: You guys are messed up badly.

Over here we never had any of this crap and we are doing just fine, I wonder why is that? Maybe because our government and our mass media doesn't keep telling us that we are in danger every 2 minutes? Maybe because we do not go to war with half the Middle East and instead of paying for war and weapons we use that money to give people a better life quality which automatically takes away the need to go around and commit crimes?

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You are doing fine? Then how come tens of thousands of you guys want to immigrate to the US every year while only a trickle of Americans want to live in Europe?

Your is a morally, corrupt society that lives as a nanny state.


Argue all you want. The fact is I will decide how I will protect myself, my family and my property. Not you. Not Obama not anyone.

I think there should be an equivalent of Godwin's law whenever the Vops of this world mention Obama in a thread :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

You call gun ownership a reality, just like gravity,....

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Not what I said. I said the existence of the guns is a reality.

Tony - Great Answers

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Originally Posted by ioan

Nope, his assertion is right, those people have been killed with freely available guns. Do you think that the guy would have been able to kill all those people without the guns? I highly doubt it.

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No. I don't. Are you having difficulty reading today? Go back and re read because that is also not what I said.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

.....you've either weakened government to the point where it can not or is not allowed to do anything.....

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Nope, it started that way in the beginning. On purpose. We like it that way.

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Originally Posted by ioan

How far does your paranoia go over guns can go?

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Let's try and be a little less personally insulting, shall we?

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/16/6ajedesa.jpg

Not funny.

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Agreed, but only too true.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The US has Never started a war. Check you facts. The Germans on the other hand.......

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Sorry to disagree with you, but we did start the second war in Iraq.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

To put it another way, the situation is so far gone there can be no turning back.[/i]

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Which is why I firmly believe a better process of ensuring those that have access to guns are the least likely to cause mass harm with them.

Should that be to look at an entire family history above just the individual applicant then so be it.

Ok lets do reality check - you wonder why we want guns. You guys (TiRE;s) have already slaughtered the equivalent to the nation of Israel and now most of you support countries wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth. God save us if you guys could mount a army. I hope we wake up and eliminate almost all of our foreign aid, withdraw from nato, withdraw from the UN. Seal our borders and tariff every piece of sh!t you guys are trying to get in here. Fk the Global Economy we will have our own and do just fine. As you can see this thread has just turned to insults so lets not sugar coat it. History shows you are vicious and barbaric and thank god you have been suppressed. Go through the history of the world if you are stuck understanding this. I am surprised they even let you guys buy propane!!