So when Merc are slow, the drivers are mediocre, but when it is McLaren Lewis is god and Whitmarsh runs a Satanic Conspiracy against him. Yeah, right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
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So when Merc are slow, the drivers are mediocre, but when it is McLaren Lewis is god and Whitmarsh runs a Satanic Conspiracy against him. Yeah, right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
It's funny. Michael's supporters use his titles & race win stats to convince anyone prepared to listen that he's the greatest F1 driver there has ever been, and yet, for some reason, they are prepared to ignore his post comeback stats.
More than two years in he has accumulated just one podium finish. He has been out scored by his teammate each season. This year he has just 23 points, whereas Rosberg has 75. In teammate comparison terms it could be argued that he's performing at at Massa or Senna level.
Yes, luck and circumstance have played their part in Michael's lack of results, but they always do for every driver. That has to be taken into account, but we're not just talking about one season here.
Alguersuari & Buemi were given three years to prove themselves at Toro Rosso. Why should Micheal be given a fourth year? How are things going to change & improve?
It would be a pretty weak argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Contracts are signed on current form. Or don't you think Webber should have re-signed either, seeing as last season counts?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Red Bull's driver farming team doesn't form a valid comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Any criticism of Hamilton whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Any criticism of Vettel whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.
Any criticism of Alonso whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.
Any criticism of Maldonado whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.
Any criticism of Petrov whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.
You see what I did there? :p
Okay. I have been writing posts about replacing Schumacher before. And he is performing really well now, which creates a dilemma. Considering his age, I would think the only reason to keep him would be if he was beating Rosberg. And this is exactly, what he is doing right now. Let's see if he can keep it up. But if he was being beaten (even if he ran close), I would like to replace him with a current Force India junior or someone else for 2013.
What about the other reason? His face sells Mercs in markets where his face is recognised as a sporting superstar. Thats something Rosberg can't do and nor can Di Resta (or whoever else is on the replacement list).Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
We can't ignore that marketing value is a strong component of what keeps Michael's seat his (though I agree with you, this season he is more than justifying his place).
Perhaps, but the gap in points between Alonso/Massa and Maldonado/Senna is comparable with Rosberg/Schumacher IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew
Webber had a very strong 2010 season. He struggled last year but has come back very strongly this season. His situation is different to Schumacher IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew
Why? Their two drivers were given three years to perform. If you view Schumacher as you would any other driver, and if contracts are signed on current form, as opposed to being based on past achievements, then Schumacher has not done enough to retain his seat IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew
Oh yes, marketing is an important reason indeed. I feel that marketing was one of the main reasons, why Michael was hired in the first place, because his sporting form must have been a big questionmark anyway. And especially as Mercedes is a midfield team (sort of), they need any attention they can get. If they could genuinely fight for the titles, they would need less marketing based on names and can afford more marketing based on raw results and popularity that derives from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
I have to admit though that in my previous post I was largely arguing from driver's (future) performance point of view. :)
But Massa, at least, has generally performed badly this year. Schumacher's points deficit would be much less were it not for the numerous mechanical problems he's suffered. His own performances have been far superior to most of Massa's.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Schumacher has already shown he has much higher potential than Buemi and Alguersauri. I was thinking of his first career but now I think of it, his second career too, for I don't think Buemi or Alguersuari have ever put in a race performance that would put them 30sec up the road from Nico, as Schumacher is often doing.
Also for those of you (I mean you Johnny Herbert :) ) who suggest Rosberg is and always was better than Schumacher, I'll wait to see Nico make a comeback at 41 years of age after 3 years in retirement and see how he gets on.
Based on talent I can think of about 2 or 3 other drivers that should give it up before Mike, after they are vetted than we can get on to truly talented pilots like Schumacher. JMHO
And they would be...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini
Narain Karthikeyan, Pedro de la Rosa :dozey:
Not that I think these two should quit, only judging on talent they don't match Mike. My point is why are we even having this coversation? HRT wants PdR and NK. Mercedes seem to want Mike and that is reason enough!
I didn't say that PdR is doing a bad job, only that I think Mike has more talent. As I implied in my previous post teams have reasons for employing the drivers they do. HRT has a Spaniard, and an Indian for what I think is sponsorship, and national interest reasons. Would they have better drivers if the car was more competitive, probably (at least NK)? Mercedes has the best of worlds, a positive marketing as well as racing commodity. Can you blame Brawn for:
Mercedes hint at another season for Schumacher - RTÉ SportQuote:
As far as Brawn is concerned, the team are prepared to give the German as long as he needs to make up his mind, although there is a feeling Schumacher is having fun and so should continue.
Very true. Entirely up to them. However, this thread posed a question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini
A driver is very fortunate to get the opportunity to pick a time to retire. More often than not the decision is made for them and it's not a time of their choosing. Most would continue as long as they can. Michael was fortunate to get a second chance to race in F1 and he clearly loves doing it. He's seemingly a more relaxed character these days, and his enjoyment is clear. That's great. But I am reminded of the career of Graham Hill. Hill was a great talent, but it's generally accepted that he raced on too long. Not qualifying at Monaco, where he had been the master, was sad to see and ultimately it prompted his retirement.
Michael hasn't reached that position yet, but I hope he makes the decision to retire before he does.
I understand your posture in this matter, and respect it, however I am indifferent to Mike and believe I have a very neutral perception of him. I get the impression that he has a pretty good handle on whether he has it or not. Plus TBH I'm not really worried about his reputation. I think he knows that he may have compromised his legacy a little, but that is up to him IMO. It is obvious to me that he cares more about racing in F1 at 43 than how his comeback will affect his overall reputation. I'm not interested in him protecting his image; however I understand that many enthusiasts are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
So after all that my short answer is no I don't think Schumacher finally should retire :)
And that, basically, was once what Graham Hill said about carrying on: that the level of his performances seemed to upset others more than it did him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini
Schumi got his second podium of the year earlier today:
www.showmanager.eu
;)
Just curious (I see Patrese also made the podium) was their charity funds raised by them?
Possibly, I don't know. The event took place at Corinna Schumacher's facility in Switzerland - Welcome at CS RANCH | Reining Horses
Thanks for the Link!!
http://www.cs-ranch.eu/cms/upload/do...elebrities.jpg
Not quite the Prancing Horse he was used to.
2012 Mercedes Starting Positions
Schumacher 4 3 2 17 8 6 9 12 3 = 7.1 average (7th best)
Rosberg 7 7 1 5 6 2 5 6 11 = 5.6 average (3rd best)
Qualifying Time Gaps (taking best qualifying time, meaning Q2 time may have been quicker than Q3 time, so Q2 time taken)
Aus Mal Chi Bah Spa Mon Val Can Bri
Schumacher +0.414 +0.172 +0.570 +2.443 +1.197 +0.000 +0.696 +0.684 +0.292 = +0.422 off Hamilton over first 9 races
Rosberg +0.547 +0.445 +0.000 +0.399 +1.175 +0.147 +0.627 +0.418 +1.445 = +0.282 off Hamilton over first 9 races
Hamilton has the best average qualifying time so far this season. Notice Schumacher's time in Bahrain compared to Rosberg. Truthfully Michael was probably +0.3 slower than his team-mate, but he was knocked out of Q1, after which the track got much quicker. Also Rosberg is unrepresentatively far off at Silverstone cos of the weather. But I think Michael lost out more in Bahrain than Rosberg did at Silverstone, so in reality the +0.140 advantage has is probably smaller, nearer to +0.1sec. Not too bad considering how much of a qualifier Rosberg is considered to be (not far at all off Hamilton and Vettel).
More like a wonkey DonkeyQuote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
not retire, maybe....but go to a team like the Mac, or red bull, or somewhere.
Brawn was great with Jean Todt and MS in control at ferrari. But now, with Brawn (and Haug) in conttrol, wellllll......
Can not beleive that there is a Lewis rumor that he is headed for Brawn/mercedes. Is he crazy???
I think Michael drove well today.
He was racey at the start and hounded Vettel all the way on lap 1.
Unfortunately the Mercedes is just not fast enough, combined with 3 stops. Schumi and Rosberg were about where they can be.
Yes, Mercedes are back where they were in 2010 and 2011. :(
Thou shall not retire!
Let the fun go on :D
Considering he is generally outperforming his younger teammate now 5-5 in qualifying and in race he seems to have the pace on him more often than not, I'd say there is no way that Schuey should retire. He is showing his quality this year again. Another good performance from the older timer yesterday.
Mercedes deserve a kick in the rear though. It's disgraceful how much they have fallen back. I wouldn't be happy if I was on the Mercedes board. Ferrari were behind them at the start of the year and have passed them out, so their whole we made a huge step this year compared to last year thing doesn't really count when you see what Ferrari have done in such a short period of time. Not good enough from an outfit like Merc.
Black Knight, you are of course right, but maybe Mercedes simply can't do better. Yes, they won the championship in 2009 as Brawn GP, but only because of the huge advantage in the beginning of the season, which was built with hundreds of millions of cash from Honda, right? As BAR and Honda, and now as Mercedes, they are good solid team, but not a championship winning team like Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren or the team from Enstone.
Mercedes is proving, what Toyota, Honda and BMW Sauber were proving in the past. That F1 is extremely difficult. Despite Mercedes having some really famous names onboard (Brawn, Costa, Willis, Bell), even this is not enough as can be seen. At least not yet. Even if you have got the money and brain power, it is still not easy to get it right.
Though I am struggling to understand, what is the missing link in the current Brackley team, which prevents them from reaching the top level. Perhaps they are lacking some real tyre experts in the team, because they have been struggling with tyres for some time (remember 2011 and degradation, 2009 and tyre heating). And as good as the Costas and Bells are, perhaps they are not really specialists in that particular area.
He is fine - give him a red bull
There are several missing links though some of them might be rectified by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Firstly the best mid-level engineers have been poached by RBR, McLaren and other big budget teams. A lot of that happened during the Brawn period when the future of the team was in doubt. Rebuilding that experienced cadre takes time though they have certainly been trying.
Secondly Mercedes has done this on the cheap, buying the team for a lot less than the infrastructure would suggest the team was worth and also underspending (compared to the RRA limit) for several seasons. Also Mercedes haven't plugged the team into their own R and D network unlike Honda (which finally sorted this aspect out just in time to build the Brawn 001...).
Thirdly the top level as you call it has just got hotter over the past few seasons. During the Honda period the top level meant Ferrari and McLaren. Now top level includes a third team, RBR.
I don't think Mercedes have done that bad a job considering.
It is a stange thing isn't it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Mercedes and the others you mention Jens. All have failed in currant guises to find true success and yet. Mclaren, Ferrari and Red Bull are now all capable of producing winning cars year in year out.
However occasionally teams can find success from no where. i.e Brawn, Benetton (sort of).
So what is that ingredient that alot of teams can't find.
Well, Rosberg is at the moment on his knees and Schumacher is destroying him.
It's time for Mercedes to make a bold move. Besides making a good car, they need to hire a top flight pilot. Someone with experience and still in his prime, perhaps Hamilton or Vettel. Realistically though, this could be difficult as Mercedes team future still remains in doubt. Wasn't the M-B board of directors going to make a decision some time soon about whether to continue in F1? It seems like some board members are not impressed with the F1 effort.
Mr Walker. MR WALKER! We've told you before. You are not to use that computer unsupervised. Now come here. It's time for your medication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
:p
Not destroying, but proving to be a worthy rival at least.
Everyone seems to be conveniently overlooking the fact that, as Brawn, the team shed a shedload of staff for financial reasons and because of the RRA. I suspect this is affecting them a lot more than we think. After all, Merc are not like Red Bull, who are happy to (and can afford) to spend their way out of a hole (being able to afford to pay for clever accountants to fudge the numbers).Quote:
Originally Posted by jens