4 degrees of camber

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Originally Posted by ioan

You're way of judging intelligence recommends you for a footy commentator position, or alternatively you could take Eddie Jordan's place in the BBC team! :rotflmao:
You asked for it, so don't come crying. :p

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In fairness to Eddie Jordan I think that this year he has developed as a pundit quite dramatically and has now found his niche. I quite like him.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

And what would you know about what a team would and wouldn't hire?

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Why is Adrian Newey regarded as a genius?

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

There is no problem in pushing the limits reliability wise... not when it comes to safety. If RBR had reason to doubt Pirelli's camber angle suggestion then fair enough. Clearly they were wrong if they did. One should never put your drivers lives at unnecessary risk. Maybe that's why RBR are in the lead of the championship though. They have taken more risks than anyone else and it has paid off, except this time they pushed it to the point of where they had reason to believe they may have pushed it too far.

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Pushing the limits leads to greater risk and therefore safety.

In NASCAR, teams will sometimes go beyond Goodyear's recommendations, pop a tyre and slam their driver into a concrete wall and nobody calls those teams being dangerous and foolhardy.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

In fairness to Eddie Jordan I think that this year he has developed as a pundit quite dramatically and has now found his niche. I quite like him.

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A lot of talk from some people. Rbr will cope this race and probably even win this race.

Pirelli to FIA: Mommy these bad kids are not listening to me! ;(

Pirelli ready to ask FIA to enforce camber restrictions at Monza - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

:rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by henners88

I really don't understand your problem with Pirelli at all??? :confused:

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I don't think that even ioan understands his problem with Pirelli. Declaring Pirelli to be the FIA's children, eludes to a pretty warped understanding of the purpose rubber serves even in a domestic sense :p :

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Originally Posted by ioan

Pirelli to FIA: Mommy these bad kids are not listening to me! ;(

Pirelli ready to ask FIA to enforce camber restrictions at Monza - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

:rotflmao:

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While you do have a point to a certain degree here , about the whiny tone of some of the articles about this , it seems to me that Hembery and his company went through an un-necessary scare at the last GP .

They never got the chance to run Spa before the race in the dry , so when things started looking like they might have serious delamination issues , they started imagining a situation like the Indy six car race .
Panic ensued , as they had assumed all had adhered to the recommendations .

And , just like you or I , when one gets the shatner scared out of them , we tend to get a little hot under the collar .

They were looking at a Michelin-esque disaster , and thought the reputation of the company was seriously at risk .



Do you take issue at all with the fact that Pirelli issues recommendations as to the maximum degree of camber ?

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Originally Posted by henners88

I really don't understand your problem with Pirelli at all??? :confused:

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His stance on Pirelli does make ioan out to be a rather peculiar little man indeed...

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

They never got the chance to run Spa before the race in the dry , so when things started looking like they might have serious delamination issues , they started imagining a situation like the Indy six car race .
Panic ensued , as they had assumed all had adhered to the recommendations .

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Just to clarify Bagwan, I know what you mean but I don't want you misquoted, Pirelli panicked until they realised that RBR wasn't following their recommendations but initially suggested to Pirelli they were.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I don't think that even ioan understands his problem with Pirelli. Declaring Pirelli to be the FIA's children, eludes to a pretty warped understanding of the purpose rubber serves even in a domestic sense :p :

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Nope, the problem is that a driver has to take care of his tires over a whole race stint.

Its that simple.

To the press , Newey stated something like "not much , maybe an eighth or so" , and later , I have read it was 4.3 .

With a little more info , having just seen then drop the level just a quarter of a degree , for safety sake , from 3.5 to 3.25 , it lets us see it in a clearer view .
The difference over , that the Bulls were running was , in fact , pretty significant . Newey well understated the overage to the press , trying to push the blame onto the tires .

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Originally Posted by henners88

Are you suggesting Vettel and Webber were not looking after their tyres on the 3 lap qualifying run and had effectively ruined their tyres before the race had even started? Is that what you think all this fuss was about???

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Suggesting, nope, that´s you. The whole issue is a no one created of people...... And lets see, this year he´s out, next year is rise or the verdict is out.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Who is he? and what do you mean "he's out"????????
You said drivers were responsible for looking after their tyres and I wondered how that was relevant to the Red Bull/Pirelli tyre issue????

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The issue, what issue, but that on the other hand could be a issue for you, if it isn´t already.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I really don't understand your problem with Pirelli at all??? :confused:

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I don't think that even ioan understands his problem with Pirelli. Declaring Pirelli to be the FIA's children, eludes to a pretty warped understanding of the purpose rubber serves even in a domestic sense :p :

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I think Ioan worked for Pirelli and was sacked when his radical new idea for a tyre compound was deemed inferior to the other Pirelli lines.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Thats the way I read it too and was a little annoyed by their admission that they believed their drivers were at great risk. If they truly believed they were at such a risk I think they would have pitted both drivers for prime tyres rather than putting them back out on options during the first stop. It suggested to me Red Bull were more concerned about the disadvantage their setup had during the race, but it ended up working for them. Newey seemed genuinely concerned after the race but who knows if they had to carry on the concern because the safety card had been played? Pirelli have taken action for Monza and issued an official limit recommendation, and its purely in the teams court now to decide how they interpret this IMO.

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As I recall they split the tire stategy , putting Vettel back on softs , and Webber on to primes .

That was a risk , but maybe not as much as it seemed , as the car would use the tires much differently on heavy fuel . They pitted them early enough , to deal with the scorched remains of quals .

One must assume that the camber maximums would apply to the hard tires , too , and since Newey was concerned about the drivers coming home at all , we must assume Pirelli would have concerns about the high camber levels affecting the construction of even the primes , since they would need to be of the same basic construction , in different compounds , to be relevent in set-up .


I believe they either need to regulate this , or leave it alone entirely .

Had the camber settings been adhered to , we would have Pirelli re-designing tires right away , or dropping the degree of camber angle , as they have seen fit to do already , despite the admission fron the Bulls .

If they re-design , to fit with more radical camber angles , the teams will only push farther into the unknown , making the issue a vicious circle , with the eventuality being that the safety will be compromised at some point to a much higher degree .

If they issue lower maximums , the teams will treat them as such , and push the envelope even more than Newey did in the last race , knowing it's low to start with .



I'd think that , rather than regulate , that they should have all learned a lesson here .

Newey , hopefully was scared enough to not risk another run so close to the edge .

And , Pirelli now , hopefully understands they need not panic until all information is in , as they swim among sharks .



Hey , maybe they could publish the angle of anyone above the recommended max .

Are we still going on about this?

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Originally Posted by henners88

What? Are you even aware of what this thread is about and what we were discussing?

I have never known someone take part in so many threads and have so little to say that is relevant. I'm almost lost for words here?? :confused:

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I´m not suprised.

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Originally Posted by henners88

What? Are you even aware of what this thread is about and what we were discussing?

I have never known someone take part in so many threads and have so little to say that is relevant. I'm almost lost for words here?? :confused:

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"is relevant" And yours are? Your opinion? It´s easy to make a as ....le of himself. Is it two years now and you are still h...e. Please continiou in the same way, at least it gives a laugh.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

"is relevant" And yours are? Your opinion? It´s easy to make a as ....le of himself. Is it two years now and you are still h...e. Please continiou in the same way, at least it gives a laugh.

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He is here 3 years 7 months from what I can tell.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

"is relevant" And yours are? Your opinion? It´s easy to make a as ....le of himself. Is it two years now and you are still h...e. Please continiou in the same way, at least it gives a laugh.

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Sorry don't quite understand most of your posts Mia.

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Originally Posted by aki13

Sorry don't quite understand your posts Mia.

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Same here. I've had a gastric flu for the last 4 days and I thought it might be nice to come on here and get away from the diarrhea....... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by henners88

I really don't understand your problem with Pirelli at all??? :confused:

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Don't worry, sometimes it's just not there for you to understand.

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Originally Posted by aki13

I think Ioan worked for Pirelli and was sacked when his radical new idea for a tyre compound was deemed inferior to the other Pirelli lines.

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Good one! :up:
But no I would never wok for a rubber making company! :laugh: Especially bad quality rubber! ;)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

I believe they either need to regulate this , or leave it alone entirely .

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Would it be OK to regulate the setups that were left alone until now?
Isn't F1 already over-regulated?

Maybe now henners' also understands why I have a problem with the way Pirelli tries to push F1 into the wrong direction? One can hope.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

If they re-design , to fit with more radical camber angles , the teams will only push farther into the unknown , making the issue a vicious circle , with the eventuality being that the safety will be compromised at some point to a much higher degree .

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There is a limit over which the teams have no interest to push the camber angle as they would be losing performance no matter how great the tires are.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Good one! :up:
But no I would never wok for a rubber making company! :laugh: Especially bad quality rubber! ;)

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Oh... and I was so sure. :p

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Originally Posted by aki13

Oh... and I was so sure. :p

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Crystal ball needs servicing! :)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

To the press , Newey stated something like "not much , maybe an eighth or so" , and later , I have read it was 4.3 .

With a little more info , having just seen then drop the level just a quarter of a degree , for safety sake , from 3.5 to 3.25 , it lets us see it in a clearer view .
The difference over , that the Bulls were running was , in fact , pretty significant . Newey well understated the overage to the press , trying to push the blame onto the tires .

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Whitmarsh was quote giving the following numbers for Spa:

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"We changed the camber coming here because Pirelli reduced the allowance by half a degree. It was 4.5 and it went to 4.0."

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Originally Posted by ioan

Whitmarsh was quote giving the following numbers for Spa:

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It seems it was right to reduce the settings . Was it not ?

Presumably , the maximums are given depending on the track surface , and likely temperatures .

What Pirelli have done going to the FIA makes perfect sense to me. AFAIK the teams have no requirement to give Pirelli the specifics of the camber angles they are running, but by involving the FIA Pirelli is asking that when needed the FIA steps in to find if the tires are being run within the recommendations given.

If tires were having issues and teams were running within the recommended specs, Pirelli would have a problem to fix and potential safety issue caused by them. If tires are having issues when running camber angles outside of recommendations, Pirelli places the safety concern on the teams.

During the play of practice on SpeedTV they were talking about the fact that Pirelli suggested they might file a suit for slander against RB until RB backed down. And I really don't blame them much for doing so. They have provided tires within the suggested requirements, and have provided the FIA and teams with recommendations on settings for the tires. When RB chose to go outside of those parameters they acted as if there was a safety issue caused by the tire supplier, when in fact it was caused by the team.

So now a recommendation has become a law enforced by the FIA? I wonder why this is needed.

Another rule in the middle of the season designed to limit one team's performance and improve the show!

Did Bridgestone ever asked the FIA to enforce camber angle recommendations?

What next? Pirelli will recommend the highest and least wing angles to be run by the teams and then ask the FIA to enforce it?

How long before the tire manufacturer will shape F1 to suit it's incompetence?

I know that the 'knowledgeable' McLaren and Ferrari fans will flame me for this cause they expect these new 'rules' to handicap RBR and thus give a chance to their favorite drivers, but hey everything is 'fair' in today's show biz.

Does anyone know if the Autosport 6 hours will be broadcasted? Maybe we can watch some real motorsport this week.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Did Bridgestone ever asked the FIA to enforce camber angle recommendations?

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Because they were never produced aggressive compounds to improve the show.

We have no tyre war and therefore no grounds to say that Pirellis are crap.

Interesting to point out that Scarbs reckons some teams are pushing their luck with camber and Hembrey being worried.

#35 The Flying Lap: Italian GP Preview with Romain Grosjean and ScarbsF1 - YouTube

Safety great importance. No, sorry, how silly of me, its a company saving face.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Because they were never produced aggressive compounds to improve the show.

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Frankly these tires are miles slower than the Bridgestones, and the Bridgestones could take serious beating on the fastest tracks while not looking like cow pie after a couple of laps.
So what is aggressive about Pirelli compounds are the Pirelli's made engineered fail? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by henners88

How does this 'rule change' help McLaren and Ferrari over Red Bull? Firstly there is no rule change, just a tyre supplier recommending a camber angle to the teams, and secondly Red Bull have adapted to the tyre regulations better than anyone. Ferrari and McLaren experienced blistering of their tyres at Spa just like Red Bull and there is nothing in this that plays to the advantage of either team.

Setup can be pushed over the limit regardless of the tyre manufacturer, and the fact Pirelli have recommended a safe camber angle goes to prove they are doing their jobs brilliantly. Bridgestone and Michellin tyres experienced blistering in years gone by and this is nothing new, and I can't understand your gripes at all. And please no more PM's insulting me please! :rolleyes:

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A recommendation that is enforced by the FIA during race is a rule, and this rule didn't exist before, so it's a rule change. Elementary logic, Watson.

PS: If you don't want to be insulted, then please do not insult others for a start.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Frankly these tires are miles slower than the Bridgestones, and the Bridgestones could take serious beating on the fastest tracks while not looking like cow pie after a couple of laps.
So what is aggressive about Pirelli compounds are the Pirelli's made engineered fail? I don't think so.

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The complaint with Bridgestone , after the tire war with Michelin pushed both makers to go long on endurance , was that they aided in the procession , in that they did not drop off in performance suddenly or early , making for less passing , and less action .

They were working to achieve the maximum distance at the maximum speed .
Now , that makes you look pretty good as a tire maker , but it was having a lot of folks complaining about the sport in general , and losing interest .
"You can't pass in F1 !" , they said , and , they were right .


Pirelli came in , knowing they would have guys like you , Ioan , who see they traits of the tires they have supplied as short-comings , rather than triumphs of balance in a world where the target is always moving .
That's a little more the way I see it , but I do get where you are coming from .

Now that we're far enough into the season for them to have worked out most of the issues , do you agree that the racing has been better as a result of the teams needing to deal with the disparate wear rates of the tires ?

Do you , or anyone else , know if Bridgestone issued camber limits when they supplied ?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

The complaint with Bridgestone , after the tire war with Michelin pushed both makers to go long on endurance , was that they aided in the procession , in that they did not drop off in performance suddenly or early , making for less passing , and less action .

They were working to achieve the maximum distance at the maximum speed .
Now , that makes you look pretty good as a tire maker , but it was having a lot of folks complaining about the sport in general , and losing interest .
"You can't pass in F1 !" , they said , and , they were right .


Pirelli came in , knowing they would have guys like you , Ioan , who see they traits of the tires they have supplied as short-comings , rather than triumphs of balance in a world where the target is always moving .
That's a little more the way I see it , but I do get where you are coming from .

Now that we're far enough into the season for them to have worked out most of the issues , do you agree that the racing has been better as a result of the teams needing to deal with the disparate wear rates of the tires ?

Do you , or anyone else , know if Bridgestone issued camber limits when they supplied ?

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Bridgestone issued recommendations no limits, and they never asked the FIA to police and enforce their recommendation and turn them into rules, additional rules that never existed before in the sport, and which further limits the creativity of the engineers.
Exactly what we were all against for years already stupid and restricting rules due to incompetence in making a competitive race tire.

I'm getting my asbestos coat now as the keyboard jockeys will be flaming soon. :\

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

The complaint with Bridgestone , after the tire war with Michelin pushed both makers to go long on endurance , was that they aided in the procession , in that they did not drop off in performance suddenly or early , making for less passing , and less action .

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Oh, and don't forget the tires made the race much more SAFE for the drivers when they didn't randomly fall off.

Gee, and I thought we are "all about the safety".


This is just another bull**** attempt by the morons at the FIA to slow down Vettel.

Too bad he destroyed the field today.

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Originally Posted by henners88

You seem to think me disagreeing with you is an insult where I tend to class PM's asking me to grow up and get a life along with comments about my nationality an insult!

Back to the topic, you would like to see evidence the FIA asked Pirelli for tyres that degrade after a few laps? Have you got evidence to suggest this wasn't in the spec as proposed by the FIA? Its a double edged sword, you can't demand evidence then dismiss the links given, only to provide nothing to support your stance in return.

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I think you are looking for troubles and I am not willing to go that way.
If you have a problem write a PM.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Frankly these tires are miles slower than the Bridgestones...

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Is that another unsubstantiated claim?

The cars may be slower this year, but if that's the case it's due to a number of factors. The FIA has always introduced rules to curb the speed of the cars for safety reasons. Once again Pirelli are not to blame for that, and their tyres cannot be compared with those run under different regulations.

If teams, and it's not only Red Bull, are pushing the limits of the tyres then either the FIA should change the regulations relating to tyres, or the teams should adhere to Pirelli's recommendations.

As the advert on the tv just said "simples".

I hate to admit it but ioan in his blind hatred for Pirelli has actually stumbled onto a valid point.

I don't think the FIA should make a change to the regulations to limit camber. It's up to a team how they set their car up and if a team is stupid enough to exceed a Tyre manufacturers recommendation, then that's up to them. There is also the argument that after running at a recommended 4 degree (for example), a team looks at how their tyres perform and decide that they can run more.

However, it's not fair to Pirelli if a team exceeds the recommendation with insufficient data to back up the decision and then blames the Tyres as RBR did. In this circumstance it should be made abundantly clear that it's the teams fault and not the Tyres.

I would suggest that the teams declare their Camber angle after Qualifying and this is made public knowledge. That way, the commentators and us the fans (remember us Jean Todt?) will be aware of what is going on and Pirelli won't get negative publicity in the event of a preventable tyre failure.

As for the safety aspect? It is the teams responsibility and always has been to protect their drivers and how they configure their cars.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Is that another unsubstantiated claim?

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Depends how good you are at Maths.

They've got DRS and KERS back this season plus much softer rubber and yet the lap times are still slower.

But who knows, maybe it's because of the moon phase! :rolleyes: