Osama Bin Laden Is Dead

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Originally Posted by Eki

Or they could have arrested him alive.

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What for, that would have been a rather moronic move.

So people seriously don't understand the difference between celebrating the deaths of innocent individuals, and bringing an evil man to justice for the MURDER of 3,000 or so innocent civilians?

Well I'm glad I put myself of a bit of a break from here, and if that really is the viewpoint of people here then perhaps I'm right to stay away. There's just no way to have a logical discussions with people that do not understand the difference in the two celebrations being discussed.

Furthermore, we don't celebrate the 350,000 killed Soviets on our Independence Day, we commemorate the 80,000 killed Finns and celebrate the rest who managed to stay alive. There's a difference.

Before too much criticism is heaped upon Obama for hesitating to attack the compound on incomplete evidence let us also not forget that he took the decision not to simply wipe the compound off the face of the earth with an airstrike but to send in troops to get evidence of his capture/death to remove doubt. I'm sure that decision will be criticised too but it would not have been an easy one.

As for criticism of American celebrations, OBL in the public eye had long stopped being a person and had become a symbol both to the West and to his followers for different reasons. Americans celebrating his killing were celebrating the death of what he stood for, just as his followers mourn for the same reason. I see little difference between the American celebrations a few days ago and those say at the end of WW2 celebrating the death of Fascism though I do not share their optimism that this is the end of AQ and its philosophy.

Those who criticise the behaviour of those celebrating Americans should be equally critical of OBL's actions that put him in a position where his death would be celebrated.

I hear that New Yorkers have been in a more reflective mood as they visit ground zero to contemplate all the events of the past decade. At least they have some sort of closure now.

Lets get back to the thread guys,instead of bitching at each other!+
Personally i am glad the guy is dead,and a coward hiding behind one of his wifes.Yes there may be repercussions,but at least the leader of the pack is history
Yes there were celebrations on the streets of New York,but that is a natural reaction and a feeling of getting even,in some way for 9/11

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Originally Posted by Eki

Furthermore, we don't celebrate the 350,000 killed Soviets on our Independence Day, we commemorate the 80,000 killed Finns and celebrate the rest who managed to stay alive. There's a difference.

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That's not quite the case, Simo Häyhä, the world's best sniper is a good example. He was/is considered a hero (and to me he is that) in this country and you know what that is based on, not our fallen soldiers or veterans who managed to stay alive. But that's just one example. Everybody who criticises Americans for killing their enemy should look into the (quite often near) past of their own country and see how they dealt with their enemies. You'll find out that Americans are pretty civilised compared to most.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

So people seriously don't understand the difference between celebrating the deaths of innocent individuals, and bringing an evil man to justice for the MURDER of 3,000 or so innocent civilians?

Well I'm glad I put myself of a bit of a break from here, and if that really is the viewpoint of people here then perhaps I'm right to stay away. There's just no way to have a logical discussions with people that do not understand the difference in the two celebrations being discussed.

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Justice? Where's the justice?

About 3000 people died all up in the terrorist attacks on Sep 11, 2011. It is estimated that in the ten years since, between 34,000-38,000 Taliban & insurgents have been killed with a further 14,000-30,000 civilians who have also perished. If revenge seeks a blood payment under the laws of exact retribution, then surely that payment has been forcibly taken from anywhere between sixteen and twenty-two times over. Does that require rejoicing over the fact that the deal is decidedly unfair?

Justice? Where's the justice?

If you want to look at the monetary expense, there's ten years of direct expenses and then all the other expenses such as medical care and loss of productivity due to increased security measures. Economists estmate the direct costs at over $2,000,000,000,000 with the rest of the tab being maybe double that again.
If spending increases had merely kept in line with inflation since 2002 the US gross federal debt would probably be about $9 trillion but instead it stands at $14 trillion. In that respect the recompence is severaly lacking indeed.

Two measures: one which far exceeds what was taken, the other which doesn't even hope to make up the shortfall; neither of which are any true measure of justice. Yet celebration?

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy."
- Martin Luther King, Jr

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

That's not quite the case, Simo Häyhä, the world's best sniper is a good example. He was/is considered a hero (and to me he is that) in this country and you know what that is based on, not our fallen soldiers or veterans who managed to stay alive. But that's just one example. Everybody who criticises Americans for killing their enemy should look into the (quite often near) past of their own country and see how they dealt with their enemies. You'll find out that Americans are pretty civilised compared to most.

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We don't celebrate the death of Stalin, which would be the closest to celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden.

I have to go with the right-wing supporters here... while no death is a cause for celebration, I understand why some people were relived from the end of a murderer, who slayed thousands and if able, would have killed many more. And about capture, forget it. His cronies would have taken hundreds of innocent hostages, to free their leader. The Americans did what they must.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Justice? Where's the justice?

About 3000 people died all up in the terrorist attacks on Sep 11, 2011. It is estimated that in the ten years since, between 34,000-38,000 Taliban & insurgents have been killed with a further 14,000-30,000 civilians who have also perished. If revenge seeks a blood payment under the laws of exact retribution, then surely that payment has been forcibly taken from anywhere between sixteen and twenty-two times over. Does that require rejoicing over the fact that the deal is decidedly unfair?

Justice? Where's the justice?

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How about the other people AQ and its associated organisations have killed before and after 9/11? Not just in the big attacks like Bali or 7/7 that we hear about but the everyday small scale killings in places like Indonesia and southern Thailand, India, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Kenya, Eritrea, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, the list is endless.

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Originally Posted by Eki

We don't celebrate the death of Stalin, which would be the closest to celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden.

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We would have if we had dared.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

So what?
Maybe they should have sprayed him with bacon fat- then he might of ended up like the Wicked Witch of the West-- "I'm melting-mellllting-oooooohh...."

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I can't help but finding that image amusing. Damn! :p :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

That is cheap talk. In Kuwait that was a known fact, but give some sort of proof for profit in Afghanistan or oil in Iraq.
It is actually rather obtuse rhetoric at best without proof.

Who in the U.S. or Europe has made this big oil profit and just who made big money in Afghanistan.

If you are saying all politics is driven by money, including relief efforts, you might have straw to lean on, but let's see some proof to your specific claim.

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Does "weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" ring a bell to you? :D :D

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Originally Posted by cali

Does "weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" ring a bell to you? :D :D

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Yes and what of it, leaked intelligence reports say that he was still trying to acquire them.

So you believe wait till they have them AND can use them-- brilliant.

If he had, had them, the death toll stopping him would probably have been higher, although the death toll as it is, was as high as it is, due to incompetence on behalf of the Bush Adm.

And a hearty cheer didn't go up from your countrymen the hour it was announced the Soviets had been defeated? Bull****, I don't believe it. And no one else here does either.
Stop being so self rightous.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Furthermore, we don't celebrate the 350,000 killed Soviets on our Independence Day, we commemorate the 80,000 killed Finns and celebrate the rest who managed to stay alive. There's a difference.

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dead or alive ?
no just dead
Bin Laden unarmed when killed: White House
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/824...ed-white-house

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"In the room with bin Laden, a women — bin Laden's wife — rushed the US assaulter and was shot in the leg but not killed. Bin Laden was then shot and killed. He was not armed," Carney said.

The elite Navy SEALs came in on two helicopters.

"The team methodically cleared the compound moving from room to room in an operation lasting nearly 40 minutes," Carney said.

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they should have taken him alive then ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,..._and_quartered
electric chair revive electric chair x 3000

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Were you there?

I was.

Shut up!!!

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Did you have fun playing brave soldier killing my relatives and burning their homes?
You sure seem to brag a lot about your participation in criminal and murderous activities you and your buddy Carne Asada or Posada have done.

It was illegal, and everybody knows it, but what the hey, as long as you and thugs you like kill people it's alright, they're just collateral damage.

But why if Noriega had not committed and crimes on US soil was he charged and extracted from a sovereign nation using gangs of killers in uniform to drag him before US Courts---there is a principle that the reach of US law stops at the border..

But Noriega, who had been yet another "strong man" favorite of the Americans, seems to have stopped obeying Washington's orders..
Better get a bunch of ignorantes to "just follow orders" and shoot up a lot of people, the law be damned..

Vops good buddy, another murderous madman:
Posada
convicted in absentia in Panama, of involvement in various terrorist attacks and plots in the Americas, including: involvement in the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed seventy-three people;[6][7] admitted involvement in a string of bombings in 1997 targeting fashionable Cuban hotels and nightspots;


You were there? You shut your mouth in shame for the stain on MY COUNTRY's flag you did then.

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Did you have fun playing brave soldier killing my relatives and burning their homes?
You sure seem to brag a lot about your participation in criminal and murderous activities you and your buddy Carne Asada or Posada have done.

It was illegal, and everybody knows it, but what the hey, as long as you and thugs you like kill people it's alright, they're just collateral damage.

But why if Noriega had not committed and crimes on US soil was he charged and extracted from a sovereign nation using gangs of killers in uniform to drag him before US Courts---there is a principle that the reach of US law stops at the border..

But Noriega, who had been yet another "strong man" favorite of the Americans, seems to have stopped obeying Washington's orders..
Better get a bunch of ignorantes to "just follow orders" and shoot up a lot of people, the law be damned..

Vops good buddy, another murderous madman:
Posada
convicted in absentia in Panama, of involvement in various terrorist attacks and plots in the Americas, including: involvement in the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed seventy-three people;[6][7] admitted involvement in a string of bombings in 1997 targeting fashionable Cuban hotels and nightspots;


You were there? You shut your mouth in shame for the stain on MY COUNTRY's flag you did then.

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Troll on.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Were you there?

I was.

Shut up!!!

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"Ten years I was fighting in the Falklands, ten long years! We didn't have any toilets. We didn't have any telly. We didn't have any buses, we had to carry everything. Tents, equipment, ammo... whatever that is... Souvenirs... Shopping... Yeah, shopping. Shopping! I liberated Port Stanley Tescos you know!"
- Richard Richard, Bottom "Parade"

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Did you have fun playing brave soldier killing my relatives and burning their homes?
You sure seem to brag a lot about your participation in criminal and murderous activities you and your buddy Carne Asada or Posada have done.

It was illegal, and everybody knows it, but what the hey, as long as you and thugs you like kill people it's alright, they're just collateral damage.

But why if Noriega had not committed and crimes on US soil was he charged and extracted from a sovereign nation using gangs of killers in uniform to drag him before US Courts---there is a principle that the reach of US law stops at the border..

But Noriega, who had been yet another "strong man" favorite of the Americans, seems to have stopped obeying Washington's orders..
Better get a bunch of ignorantes to "just follow orders" and shoot up a lot of people, the law be damned..

Vops good buddy, another murderous madman:
Posada
convicted in absentia in Panama, of involvement in various terrorist attacks and plots in the Americas, including: involvement in the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed seventy-three people;[6][7] admitted involvement in a string of bombings in 1997 targeting fashionable Cuban hotels and nightspots;


You were there? You shut your mouth in shame for the stain on MY COUNTRY's flag you did then.

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Trust me.....I wasn't there for you. You were just lucky I was.

I served my country....

Have you?

Didn't think so.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Trust me.....I wasn't there for you. You were just lucky I was.

I served my country....

Have you?

Didn't think so.

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I think I've asked before, but were you in the military? Which country did you fight for Tony?

WASHINGTON (AP) — Killing Osama bin Laden was a big victory for the U.S., but how exactly the raid went down is another story — and another, and another.

Over two days, the White House has offered contradictory versions of events, including misidentifying which of bin Laden's sons was killed and wrongly saying bin Laden's wife died in gunfire, as it tries to sort through what the president's press secretary called the "fog of combat" and produce an accurate account.

Press Secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday that officials were trying to get information out as quickly as possible about the complex event witnessed by just a handful of people, and the story line was being corrected.

This is what happens when an administration is founded on lies and damned lies, even good news is turned into pathetic bull-****.

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Originally Posted by Sonic

^^^^ I know you are playing devils advocate but are you really comparing Bin Laden with George W Bush?

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George W Bush is a greater terrorist than Osama Bin Laden ever was. How George W Bush, Tony Blair etc are not in a world court for war crimes is beyond me. If anyone needed to be killed for crimes committed, its those guys.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I served my country....

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Cuba?

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Originally Posted by Eki

Cuba?

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Nevada!

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

dead or alive ?
no just dead
Bin Laden unarmed when killed: White House
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/824...ed-white-house

they should have taken him alive then ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,..._and_quartered
electric chair revive electric chair x 3000

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I can't decide which is more cowardly, to hide behind a woman or to shoot an unarmed man.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Yes and what of it, leaked intelligence reports say that he was still trying to acquire them.

So you believe wait till they have them AND can use them-- brilliant.

If he had, had them, the death toll stopping him would probably have been higher, although the death toll as it is, was as high as it is, due to incompetence on behalf of the Bush Adm.

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no no no no my dear Bobby-boy - USA claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, not that they were trying to acquire them. BTW, did you know that CIA funded Saddam for a long period of time?

OK Bob, you are clearly blindfolded and living in your own cinderella world, so it is time for me to stop argueing with you. Bye :)

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Originally Posted by cali

no no no no my dear Bobby-boy - USA claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, not that they were trying to acquire them. BTW, did you know that CIA funded Saddam for a long period of time?

OK Bob, you are clearly blindfolded and living in your own cinderella world, so it is time for me to stop argueing with you. Bye :)

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And their lap dog Blair claimed with a straight face that Iraq was ready to use the WMDs in 45 minutes. Maybe he was talking about designing an instant nuclear bomb.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I can't decide which is more cowardly, to hide behind a woman or to shoot an unarmed man.

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Hiding behind a woman for sure <sick>

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Originally Posted by Eki

I can't decide which is more cowardly, to hide behind a woman or to shoot an unarmed man.

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Maybe he made a scary face.

That says a lot about where your mind set is.

On one hand you have a wanted criminal who hides behind an innocent woman. Forget that he was wanted, there is never any justification for a man to hide behind a woman, unless he is a cowardly worm of a man.

On the other hand you have a special operations team who, after almost ten years, locates and comes face to face with the most wanted man in the world. A man who is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children. A man who believes that the ulitmate way to paradise is to die as a martyr. A man who hates everything about your culture and way of life and has vowed to destroy it by any means available, including a nuclear weapon if he can get his hands on it. You believe it is very possible, in fact, likely, that in the next few seconds he may try to either escape or grab a weapon (which logic tells you that he must have stashed around the house just in case such a situation should ever arise) and try and kill you.

Who can't figure out who is morally right and who is morally wrong in this situation? Shame on you.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I can't decide which is more cowardly, to hide behind a woman or to shoot an unarmed man.

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Originally Posted by Eki

And their lap dog Blair claimed with a straight face that Iraq was ready to use the WMDs in 45 minutes. Maybe he was talking about designing an instant nuclear bomb.

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OK, they did not find any - which was totally expected. The question is - why are the troops still in Iraq??? Spreading democracy all over among muslims??? Please give me a break :D The people in Iraq or Afghanistan will never accept our manners, culture, religion and so-called democracy. Are the locals happy about it -NO!

I'm not anti USA, but I am against any military invasion :) But OK, this is the world we are living and moaning about it here, in the forum, does not help a bit. Just surprised to see so many blindfolded ultrapatriots here and are heavily influenced by mass media (propaganda).

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

That says a lot about where your mind set is.

On one hand you have a wanted criminal who hides behind an innocent woman. Forget that he was wanted, there is never any justification for a man to hide behind a woman, unless he is a cowardly worm of a man.

On the other hand you have a special operations team who, after almost ten years, locates and comes face to face with the most wanted man in the world. A man who is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children. A man who believes that the ulitmate way to paradise is to die as a martyr. A man who hates everything about your culture and way of life and has vowed to destroy it by any means available, including a nuclear weapon if he can get his hands on it. You believe it is very possible, in fact, likely, that in the next few seconds he may try to either escape or grab a weapon (which logic tells you that he must have stashed around the house just in case such a situation should ever arise) and try and kill you.

Who can't figure out who is morally right and who is morally wrong in this situation? Shame on you.

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Or they could look in their own back yard at someone like George W Bush who is also responsible for the death of innocent woman, children and men. We don't see a task force looking for him now do we, yet he seemed too hate the Muslim culture and wiped out just as many Muslims as Bin Laden did Westerners.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Were you there?

I was.

Shut up!!!

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Your simple presence there ( BTW what were you doing there? ) doesn't mean you know the "truth" and anyway you're not in the position to order anybody to shut up.

On the same time ( December 1989 ) I was right in the middle of another "hot" event and I saw what happened. However the "truth" behind the event is not clear even today ( although it's a fact that both CIA and KGB were involved :laugh :) .

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

That says a lot about where your mind set is.

On one hand you have a wanted criminal who hides behind an innocent woman. Forget that he was wanted, there is never any justification for a man to hide behind a woman, unless he is a cowardly worm of a man.

On the other hand you have a special operations team who, after almost ten years, locates and comes face to face with the most wanted man in the world. A man who is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children. A man who believes that the ulitmate way to paradise is to die as a martyr. A man who hates everything about your culture and way of life and has vowed to destroy it by any means available, including a nuclear weapon if he can get his hands on it. You believe it is very possible, in fact, likely, that in the next few seconds he may try to either escape or grab a weapon (which logic tells you that he must have stashed around the house just in case such a situation should ever arise) and try and kill you.

Who can't figure out who is morally right and who is morally wrong in this situation? Shame on you.

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Just one question - do you know by a fact that OBL was hiding behind a woman, or you just believe the reports leaked into media to ...errmmm...let's say...discredit OBL in front of a whole world and muslims? This could be true or not, I would discredit such claims as it is not the main point in this case.

Sorry to say, but I do not believe the mass media anymore, beacause information is the greatest tool to influence masses.

I have no idea whether he was actually hiding behind his wife or not and quite franky I don't give a ****. As the worlds most wanted man he chose to endanger all that surrounded him simply by having them live with him. He personally is responsible to any harm that may have come to his family because he should have just crawled off to a hole somewhere alone to keep his family safe.

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Originally Posted by cali

Just one question - do you know by a fact that OBL was hiding behind a woman, or you just believe the reports leaked into media to ...errmmm...let's say...discredit OBL in front of a whole world and muslims? This could be true or not, I would discredit such claims as it is not the main point in this case.

Sorry to say, but I do not believe the mass media anymore, beacause information is the greatest tool to influence masses.

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Examples and exact quotes from GWB please.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Or they could look in their own back yard at someone like George W Bush who is also responsible for the death of innocent woman, children and men. We don't see a task force looking for him now do we, yet he seemed too hate the Muslim culture and wiped out just as many Muslims as Bin Laden did Westerners.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Examples and exact quotes from GWB please.

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Are you ferking nuts? The guy ordered the killing of thousands of people in Muslim countries. Examples and quotes? If you watched TV over the last decade you would have heard and seen them all. Examples and quotes :crazy:

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

I have no idea whether he was actually hiding behind his wife or not and quite franky I don't give a ****. As the worlds most wanted man he chose to endanger all that surrounded him simply by having them live with him. He personally is responsible to any harm that may have come to his family because he should have just crawled off to a hole somewhere alone to keep his family safe.

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I still would've preferred that they would capture him alive. But maybe he did not surrender and it was necessary to eliminate him. The world is still not safer place to live, it could be quite the opposite and that's what I'm afraid of. Now USA as the world Police should also protect us ;) ... but they ar not as mighty as they claim so we could be f**ed up in a larger scale than never by those extremists again. This is my only concern. If killing OBL would bring world peace, I would be celebrating this as well, but it is more likely that it will only bring more attacks against western civilization.

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Originally Posted by cali

I still would've preferred that they would capture him alive. But maybe he did not surrender and it was necessary to eliminate him. The world is still not safer place to live, it could be quite the opposite and that's what I'm afraid of. Now USA as the world Police should also protect us ;) ... but they ar not as mighty as they claim so we could be f**ed up in a larger scale than never by those extremists again. This is my only concern. If killing OBL would bring world peace, I would be celebrating this as well, but it is more likely that it will only bring more attacks against western civilization.

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Killing Osama Bin Laden has made the world a worse place to be now. The backlash is coming and it will affect all of us :(